T5 B64 Gao Visa Docs 1 Of 6 Fdr- 7-9-03 Gao Interview Of Fbi Re Fbi Role In Visa Revocation 508

FB Prepared by: Kate Brentzel Date Prepared: July 10, 2003 Reviewed by: Type reviewer name here

Index: Type bundle index here DOC Number: Type document number here DOC Library: Type library name here

Job Code: 320172

Record of Interview Title Purpose Contact Method Contact Place Contact Date Participants

Interview with Steve McCraw, Office of Intelligence, FBI To discuss FBI's role in the visa revocation process In person interview FBI headquarters July 9, 2003 FBI: Steve McCraw, Assistant Director, Office of Intelligence Tom Ruocco, Special Assistant to Steve McCraw GAP: John Brummet, Kate Brentzel, Mary Moutsos

Comments/Remarks: We met with Steve McCraw and his assistant Tom Ruocco to follow up on some of the information that Mr. McCraw discussed during the June 18 hearing on the visa revocation process. In his testimony, Mr. McCraw said that the FBI had determined that only 47 of the 240 individuals with revoked visas, which were mentioned in our visa revocation report, were in TIPOFF and that the FBI did not believe that these 47 people were in the country. He said that State, FBI, and the intelligence community had agreed after the September 11 attacks that TIPOFF would be the database for terrorists and suspected terrorists. He said that regardless of whether State had revoked other visas based on terrorism concerns, that the FBI is primarily concerned with the individuals in TIPOFF. He said that being notified of a revocation is not important to them since they are already monitoring the individuals in TIPOFF. If the individuals are not in TIPOFF or VGTOF (the FBI's Violent Gangs and Terrorist Organization File), then the FBI does not believe that they pose a terrorism threat. Mr. McCraw said that the other revocations in the group of 240 were probably not based on a real terrorism threat, but were more likely revoked for other reasons of because of administrative hold-ups such as the Condor delays, (auditor's note: FBI's position indicates that FBI and State are not using the same information to determine if a person may pose a terrorism threat since Mr. McCraw said that it is only concerned with individuals in TIPOFF and not others whom State had revoked because of terrorism concern.) We told Mr. McCraw that State's Visa Office had said that visas could be revoked based on information that the office had received through channels other than TTPOFF, such as diplomatic security reporting and other intelligence reports. We asked Mr. McCraw if the FBI had asked State why it had revoked certain individuals' visas based on terrorism concerns but did not enter the names into TIPOFF. He said that the FBI had not asked State why it had revoked those visas nor had it requested or reviewed any of State's documentation on those cases that were not in TIPOFF. Mr. McCraw said that he FBI's Foreign Terrorist Tracking Task Force (FTTTF) monitors all individuals in TIPOFF and VGTOF. For example, the FTTTF receives weekly batches of 1-94 arrival forms from the INS, which could alert the task force if individuals in TIPOFF entered the country. The FTTTF monitors individuals in TTPOFF who enter the country. Mr. McCraw said that the task force knew that 8 individuals from the group of 47 who were in TIPOFF had entered the United States at some point but the FBI did not think they were still here.

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Record of Interview

Prepared by: Kate Brentzel Date Prepared: July 10, 2003 Reviewed by: Type reviewer name here

Index: Type bundle index here DOC Number: Type document number here DOC Library: Type library name here Job Code:320172

We asked Mr. McCraw if State's revocation notice might be useful information to have on an individual who was in TIPOFF but he said that he FTTTF's monitoring of these individuals operates separate of State's revocation action. He said that they didn't care about the revocation notices because they would already be tracking individuals they were interested in by monitoring the TIPOFF database. Mr. McCraw said that "the system" he referred to in his oral testimony is this TIPOFF-FTTTF system. He drew this graphic on a white board for us:

He said that this was "the system" through which terrorists are tracked by the FBI. He said that that they would not investigate individuals who were not in TIPOFF based solely on the revocation notice from State. Mr. Ruocco said that the revocation cables go through the same checks that all other State visa cables (such as the Donkeys, Bears, etc.) because the FBI communications center picks up on the word "visa" and then sends the cables through the same process. The information from the cable is checked against all FBI indices and if there are hits on that individual, the cable is sent to a substantive unit for more analysis and research. We asked Mr. McCraw if the FTTTF received the revocation cables too; he said that it did not and that it was not necessary since the task force was already tracking individuals of concern through monitoring TIPOFF.

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Record of Interview