T5 B64 Gao Visa Docs 1 Of 6 Fdr- 4-29-03 Gao Interview Re Ice Investigations Re Terrorism And Visa Revocation 520

'9/11 Law Enforcement Privacy

IN 5 Prepared by: Kate Brentzel Date Prepared: April 29,203 Reviewed by:

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Record of Interview Title Purpose Contact Method \t Place \Contact Date Participants Comments/Remarks: I met withL

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Interview with Jim Hayes and To discuss whether the National Security Unit (in the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement - BICE) specifically investigates individuals whose visas were revoked for terrorism In-person interview Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Department Qf Homeland Security (formerly INS) April 29, 2003 BICEJ _| Jim Hayes

Jand Jim Hayes tp follow-up on some questions we had concerning the

actions that the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (BICE)'s National Security Unit investigators takes on visa revocations (On March 1, 2003, INS ceased to exist and was split into several bureaus under the Department of Homeland Security; the National Security Unit became part of BICE).

\, the end recipient of both the faxed visa revocation certificates and the revocation

\m the State Department is]_

Js Lookout Unit. I asked L

Jand Mr. Hayes

Jever notified them that certain visas had been revoked. They said that she

I whetherl

| sometimes notifies them about a visa revocation for an individual in TIPOFF but that she does not. * I typically notify them about most general revocations. Jsaid that even if his investigators were notified of a revocation, that there is not much action that National Security Unit can take against the person with the revoked visa unless there are other charges against the person. He stated several times that there was not much point in / having his investigators locate persons with revoked visas who had entered the country because * revocation is not grounds for removal. He said that the Immigration and Naturalization Act (INA) should be amended so that revocation is a removable ground. Mr. Hayes agreed that if visa revocation were grounds for removal this would give the government another tool to fight terrorism - if there is derogatory information on someone, then BICE could locate the person and remove him easily.

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Record of Interview

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Prepared by: Kate Brentzel Date Prepared: April 29, 203 Reviewed by:

I asked|_

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J whether there was any policy in the National Security Unit as to how visa

revocations should be handled, specifically for individuals who had already entered the United If

j States. He said that NSU does not have a policy on this. He pointed out that NSU is an ^investigation unit, white the Lookout Unit (which was part of INS Inspections division and is now part of the Bureau of Customs and Border Protection - BCBP) handles revocations. Mr. Hayes said that the Lookout Unit, as part of Inspections division, needs to receive revocation \s from State because inspectors at the ports of entry are the ones tasked with keeping ouj aliens who do not have valid visas: In the case that someone enters the United States before his Visa is revoked, the inspectors need to have notice of the revocation in case the person leaves $nd Attempts to re-enter. [_

Jstressed that NSU does not have a policy on locating or

investigating visa revocation cases since revocatidns have always been an "inspection function." H^ said that NSU could investigate individuals to see if they were violating the terms of their admission, (for example, by overstaying the time they were granted by the inspector to stay in the

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\d States or by taking ajob even though they entered on a student visa), but the law (INA)

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idoeS not make a visa revocation, in and of itself, illegal for the individuals to stay in the country. i Itold[

Jand Mr. Hayes that of the 240 visa revocation cases we examined,

\y 27 of these individuals had entered the United States before their visas were \d and ijhat the Non-Immigration Information System (NIIS) did not have departure dates for i them. I askedvthem if NSU would have the resources to investigate that many people, f I

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[said that his unit could probably handle that number of investigations but that he did not know what the p\oint would be to investigate these people when they cannot do anything to remove them.

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Currently, the end recipient of both the faxed visa revocation certificates and the cables is the Lookout Unit. Iasked]_

Jand Mr. Hayes if it would make sense to have State send visa

revocation certificates or cables to NSU as well as to the Lookout Unit, which is in inspections.

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Prepared by: Kate Brentzel Date Prepared: April 29,203 Reviewed by:

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They said that this might be a good idea. Mr. Hayes also said that it would be helpful if State would give NSU investigators the derogatory information that explained whyt\\e visa was revoked. I asked them if NSU ^as ever involved with giving derogatory information on individuals to State that leads to revocations!]

]said that he has no knowledge of NSU investigators ever

giving State information that leads to revocation. Mr. Hayes said that he did not think that INS units overseas did intelligence investigations overseas that would lead to revocations. Condor .7 Investigation i i i

Mr. Hayes gave me an update on the investigation that NSU did into the 7 Condor cases (NSU 11

started an investigation of these 7 Condor cases country because of Congressional interest in the\. Mr. Ha

revoked visas who are in the United States). Mr. Hayes said 4 of the 7 have been located and that} i7 " they are in-status and complying with the terms of their admission. He said that the investigators jl scrutinized their applications and searched for elements of fraud but found no problem with any of • them. One individual was identified as having relocated to Canada. Two of the 7 were not located I and the investigators found no evidence that they were ever here and no evidence that they were ' • here but left the country. They could find no "public footprints" of these two individuals - no bank records, postal records, etc. He said that it is possible that they entered and subsequently left the country and it is also possible that they are here and living under different names. He said that they have not closed the cases on these two but that they have no further information or leads to! investigate.

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Mr. Hayes told me, as he did in our first interview WICn nlm, that they had received n6 aerogatory information on the Condor 7 from any source. He said that they checked FBI and CIA databases to try to find derogatory information on them but found nothing. I asked him if they asked the Foreign Terrorist Tracking Task Force for the derogatory information since it was the FTTTF that originally developed the recommendation that the individuals should not receive visas. He said that he was not aware of asking the FTTTF for this information or if any of his colleagues had done 9/11 Personal Page 3

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Prepared by: Kate Brentzel Date Prepared: April 29, 203 Reviewed by

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so since he was assigned to the investigation after it had already started. I asked Mr. Hayes if he ever brought the matter of the Condor 7 cases to the attention of Sarah Kendall in the National Security Law division. He said that there was nothing to bring to her attention since he would have to have derogatory information on the individuals in order to warrant showing it to Ms. Kendall or to attempt to seek prosecution of the individuals on terrorism grounds.

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