Mfr Nara- T5- Team 5 Meeting- Nd- 01069

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Meeting of Team 5: Sam Brinkley, Susan Ginsburg, Tom Eldridge, and Janice, Kephart-Roberts with Vice-Chairman Hamilton and Chris Kojm Notes Taken by Ben Rhodes

Deadline: Lee began by asking the team if they were on schedule to meet the Commission's deadline. Susan Ginsburg replied that they could have "something" by the deadline. Currently, they are distracted by document requests and preparation for hearings, and have not concentrated on putting their narrative together. Documents/Subpoenas: Susan Ginsburg said there were delays in document production from multiple sources. The team is negotiating with several agencies - State, DHS, Do.I, DoD and CIA - and the discussions have been time-consuming. She said the problem is not the willingness to cooperate, but rather the time spent in discussion, and the lack of documents in some cases. For instance, the INS does not have much at the senior level on counter-terrorism, and thus the team is depending upon interviews for its narrative. The Team is also waiting for a response to a request for minutes from lower level INS meetings on terrorism. The Team is yet to evaluate some documents from DoJ and FBI, but so far so good. Tom Eldridge added that State has been very compliant. Susan Ginsburg concluded that she does not recommend a subpoena. She feels that the Team's problems are being attended to, with the exception of DoD and the detainee interview issue. Lee urged the Team to keep him or Chris abreast of any problems, and suggested that he and/or Chairman Kean could intervene personally (short of a subpoena) if a problem arises. Report: The Team is working towards three documents - a pre-9lll assessment, a 9/11 narrative, and an assessment of post-9lll actions and recommendations for the future. The only one they are currently working on is the pre-9lll assessment. The Team' has two benchmarks: the hearing in January, and PhilipZelikow's first-draft deadline of March 1. Susan Ginsburg said the Team has a heavy load, contributing to the December 8 hearing and the January hearing. Sam Brinkley suggested that the staff statement for the January hearing would be useful towards drafting the report, and suggested a timemanagement strategy to Team members. Lee said the report has different audiences. The extended monograph will be geared towards experts. The Executive Summary is for a different audience - the general public, and a lot of local and state officials who need to be better informed about border protection. Thus the Executive Summary should be written differently - simple and clear, without much Washington jargon.

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Lee said the Team must explain the problem- how there are millions of people coming in and out of the country and thousands of miles of borders. The Team has to work in riskmanagement - what do managers on this problem confront, and where can they best apply resources? Cost is a big issue.

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Recommendations: The Team raised the issue of vetting recommendations with Commissioners. Lee said his preference is for the Team to provide the Commission with guidance. He said it is better for the Team to identify the key recommendations then for the Commissioners to sort through fifty or sixty recommendations. Lee said the Team should be prepared to offer the Commission the pros and cons of key recommendations. Lee said the Team would have to evaluate steps taken since 9/11. For instance, how are agencies responding to DHS? Is DHS doing the job of coordination? How effective is the PATRIOT Act? What is being done about disruptions in the visa process? He said this is a problem for American foreign policy, and he has written to Secretary Powell about it. Watchlists: Susan Ginsburg said watchlists would be an area of focus for the Team. To do this, the Team is looking more broadly at the intelligence community. There is still no single agency responsible for these watchlists. TTIC does not have a clear directive to assume this responsibility. An issue is also dissemination of the watchlists, which is still done largely by the FBI - DHS's role in this is not yet formed. Threat Assessment: weak spots in border material on this. The falsifying documents

Lee said the Team will have to address the threat. What are the security? Susan Ginsburg said detainee interviews have a wealth of Team said identity security is a big problem - terrorists are good at and adjusting their status once they get into the country.

US-VISIT: Lee asked about US-VISIT. The Team said that Asa Hutchison is running the program at DHS and will testify at the hearing in January. Lee asked if the technology is ready. The Team said it is, but disseminating it to every port of entry is a different issue. Potential problems are cost over-runs and throughput. The system is estimated at $3-10 billion and will be phased in incrementally. Sam Brinkley said US-VISIT is the largest systems integration in the history of the usa -larger than anything DoD has done. Lee said the Team had to be aware of the cost of anything they recommend. The Team said they are talking to people at OMB about US-VISIT. Visa Authority: Lee asked who has authority for visas - State or DHS?' The Team said that State does, but there is some statutory change taking place and some authority is being ceded to DHS. DHS has an Office of Visa-Enforcement and is sending personnel to some countries (eg. Saudi Arabia). Visa Interviews: Lee asked if the new interview standards are a good idea. Tom Eldridge said no, he thinks they are over-inclusive. Greater scrutiny is needed, but there are serious disruptions in places like South Korea. Lee asked about profiling. Why do we need to scrutinize blond women from Sweden? Tom Eldrigde said we had to consider the possibility that al Qaeda would use blond women from Sweden. DHS: Lee asked about DHS. The Team said they have heard some bad things. Lee said he hears DHS is a mess. He understands that setting up the Department is exceedingly difficult. But we have to bear down - Energy is over 20 years old and still a mess.

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Ports/Pushing Perimeter Back: Lee asked about ports. Sam Brinkley said Team 7 was taking ports. Lee asked about pushing the perimeter back in general. The Team said there were good ideas applicable to cargo and people. For instance, the "trusted-shipper" program and "trusted-traveler" programs facilitate entry for legitimate cargo/travelers. Philosophically, you have to think about keeping bad things and bad people out of the country - not just slowing everything down. This demands pre-screening in hostcountries. Sam Brinkley and Tom Eldridge said current efforts at pre-screening at major ports in Singapore and Amsterdam would be instructive. Civil Liberties: Lee said he wants the Team - and Commission - to look at civil liberties. He suggested the report by the Lawyers Committee for Human Rights. He said the American people will have to be prepared for more intrusiveness and less privacy. Tom Eldridge said the Team is looking at the use of immigration laws against terrorismin particular, the sweeps of immigrants after 9/11. The Team is looking towards the question of how we would respond to another attack - the post-9/11 sweeps, he feels, did not yield anything. 9/11: Lee asked about 9/11 - could the hijackers have gotten in today? Susan Ginsburg said they are evaluating the hijackers documentation and methods of adjudication. She raised the possibility that the Team might have new findings that differ from or add to the J oint Inquiry Report. Lee said the report would have to answer the question: are the American people safer? Even if the answer is just "somewhat safer" that would make a difference 9111 scared the hell out of people. Lee said he has never recalled the American people being so concerned with their own vulnerability. The Commission - broadly - will have to educate people about the threat. Is it just to New York and Washington, or do people in Switzerland County, Indiana need to be concerned? .Focus/ Interface with Commissioners: Lee said the Team will really have to focus the Commission's work on borders - most Commissioners have hardly looked at these issues and they will need direction. Lee invited the Team to call him with any of their concerns. Lee is also anxious that the recommendations be politically feasible - he does not want to take something on that has no chance of passing. The Commission's must be practical and pragmatic.