Mfr Nara- T4- Team 4 Meeting- 11-25-03- 01068

Meeting of Team 4: John Roth, Doug Greenburg, and Serena Wille with Chris 1''-::'') Kojm and Vice Chair Hamilton November 25,2003 --

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Notes Taken by Ben Rhodes: Progress: Lee asked how the Team is progressing. John Roth said they've interviewed about 50 people, including FBI, CIA, Treasury, NSC, State, and the private sector. He estimates they have about 30 more interviews to go. Lee asked about documents. John Roth said they now have enough to get the lay of the land. The most trouble has been with the FBI, but the problems have largely been with technical competence, not a lack of will. The FBI now gives the Team unfettered access to its database. Lee asked about subpoenas. John Roth said the Team did not need one, and felt they would meet all of the Commission's target dates. Feedback from Commissioners: Lee asked what the Commission could do to help. John Roth said the Team is entering a stage where they need feedback from Commissioners. The Team has a detailed outline and is beginning to draft - they don't want to end up with something in April that draws heavy Commissioner dissent. Lee asked about the most helpful way to do this. John Roth said he would like to distribute the Team's outline - preferably the classified one - to Commissioners. Lee said he would encourage greater Commissioner interaction. Thus far Commissioners have been consumed by access issues - he now feels they will be shifting to substance. Even if the classified outline cannot be distributed easily to Commissioners, the Team should distribute something unclassified that at least gives the direction of their thinking. Report: Lee said the Team's narrative should be straightforward and non-judgmental, with considerable detail. The Team should look at pre/9ll, since 9/11, and look ahead to recommendations. Then they should answer: What did we do wrong? What have we done to fix it? What are the most important things that remain to be done? Lee said the Team will have to stay close to the Congress while drafting. They will also have to prioritize their recommendations for Commissioners. Organization: Lee raised the issue of whether the USG is organized to deal with terrorist financing. Do we need a czar? Where would he be located? The Team will have to hit this hard, since terrorist financing is a cross-cutting issue. He is not a fan of coordination between government agencies - it usually chaotic unless there is someone in charge, and a clearly articulated policy. The Team should explain what we mean by coordination, and how we should do it. International Cooperation: Lee raised international cooperation. With regard to other governments, the Team should call it like they see it. Many of these countries have

rudimentary financial systems and political will is hard to determine - often countries will say the right things and do something else. The Team should idenitfy which countries are cooperating and which aren't. The Team should also look at how you get cooperation and how you handle the problem when you don't. Lee said the Team will

have to look at the Saudis. A CFR report on financing hit the Saudis very hard. John Roth said the Saudis have been more cooperative since the Riyadh bombings, but it remains to be seen whether they will keep it up. Public-Private: Lee raised public and private cooperation. John Roth said this is an issue they are looking at. He does not think that it is a big problem - American banks have generally been cooperative on terrorism. Charities: Lee raised charities - how do we tell the good from bad? Doug Greenburg said this will be in the Team's case-studies. For instance, we knew a lot about the Illinois charities shut down shortly after 9/11. These charities evolved out of Gulf-based arrangements to fund the Afghan mujahedeen. Lee asked if we have sufficient law enforcement powers to go after charities. John Roth said it is hard to make a criminal case. We can trace money up until it leaves the U.S. - it gets difficult when the money is going somewhere like Bosnia or Chechnya. Even if we have intelligence, it is a hard thing to show in court. Lee raised the issue of what it means to say "the money flows to al Qaeda." Serena Wille said this is a problem - How do you prosecute in the U.S; when you can't pinpoint where the money went abroad, and how do you show it is specifically funding a UBL affiliate? Priority: Lee raised priorities - in the scheme of the war on terror, the Team should assess what priority should be given to financing. Can we cripple al Qaeda or merely harass them? Serena Wille said a question is what you do when you find a finance trail do you freeze it, prosecute, or let it go so you can use it for intelligence gathering? Freezing assets can scare donors and show that we're serious, but you'll never fully tum off the spigot. Doug Greenburg said we have to understand that there are more than a few arteries - the network is diverse and far-flung, with countless direct and indirect transfers. Lee said sustainability is a key issue. A lot of this is not in the public eye so it is hard to keep up the pressure. Backlash: Lee asked about anti-American backlash to shutting down charities. Serena Wille said there is a perception that we're anti-Muslim, even though we've branched out from targeting charities. Doug Greenburg said some countries take action quietly - they have to make it look like they're not acting because the Americans told them to. John Roth said it's hard to draw the line between fundamentalist anti-Americanism and international terrorism. Capacity-building: Lee asked about capacity-building. John Roth said this is a focus of U.S. policy. But the problem is terrorists can move from formal to informal transfers - if the central bank is strengthened, they'll use hawalas or cash smuggling. Doug Greenburg said we can help a country like Pakistan draft an anti-money laundering law, but they can't enforce it. Lee said you have to persuade these countries that it's in their interest to develop these capacities. John Roth said this gets back to priorities - with a country like Pakistan we feel there are more urgent things for Musharrafto be doing.

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Madrasas: Lee asked about madrasas. Serena Wille said it is hard to tell. You'll have Saudis funding a school with graduates who then go on to become terrorists. Does that mean the madrasa is a terrorist entity? Doug Greenburg said the connections are often loose. We have suspicions that money in a madras a in Pakistan may have ended up funding terrorism, but we can't prove this unless someone saw the transfer of cash. Lee said the Team will have to make the problem clear. This is a complicated web. We exaggerate when we say we'll dry up all the money - we can accomplish some things, and not others. Commission Deadline: Chris Kojm said this team will be ready earlier than others. They are dealing with a specialized topic, and may want to highlight good news as well - for instance, the fact that the FBI was doing good work on issues like the Illinois charities pre-9f11. The Joint Inquiry came down hard on the FBI and ignored this. John Roth said people have to understand that information on charities and NGOs did not rise to the level of criminal prosecution pre-9f11. Serena Wille said the press reports on terrorist financing are often misleading, focusing on one story and not the broader issue. Doug Greenburg asked if the Commission had a sense about whether they would finish on time. Lee said they are assuming yes. In some ways it is not in the Commission's hands because there is a statutory deadline, and the President and Speaker Hastert are against any extension. Could the Commission use a few more months? Yes. But it would take significant political pressure to push it farther into the election season. Right now, a few Commissioners would vote to extend the deadline if they could. But Chairman Kean wants to meet the deadline and it is currently Lee's feeling that they must operate under the assumption that the Commission will do so.

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