Deposition Of Randy Rossi

\ UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT " ' . u.. {

FoR THE NoRTHERN DrsrRrcr oÈ calrFoRNrA ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )

RUSSELL ALLEN NORDYKE and SALLIE ANN NORDYKE, dba. TS T R A D E S H O V ü S ,J E S S B . G U Y , DUANE N. DAVTS, TASIANA WERTYSCHYN, ,JEAN LEE, TODD B A L T E S , D E N N T SB L A I R , R . L . (Bob) ADAMS, ROGER BAKER, MTKE FOURNIER and VIRGTL McVICKER, Plaintiffs,

Case No.: MJJ

CERTF I IE Þ

t#pY

\7e

MARY V. KING, GA]L STEELE, VIILMA CHAN, KE]TH CARSON, SCOTT HAGGERTY, the COUNTY OF ALAMEDA, and the COUNTY OF ALAMEDA BOARD OF SUPERVISORS ji.:'"W.

Defendants.

DEPOSITION OF RANDY C. Sacramento, Friday,

ROSSI California

March

I'7 ,

2006

Reported by: Laurie D. Lerda, CSR No. 3649, CSR Job No. 680B9A

ffi@pv

C 99 04389

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

: Deposition

1

o f R A N D YC . R O S S I , t a k e n o n b e h a l f

¿

of the Plaintiffs

3

1801 I Street,

4

b e g i n n i n g a t 9 : 0 9 a . m . a n d e n d i n g a t 1 0 : l - 5 â . r n .r o n

5

Friday,

6

Certified

at Esqui-re Deposition First

March lJ,

Floor,

Sacramento, Cal-ifornia,

2006 before

Shorthand Reporter

Services,

Laurie

D. Lerda,

No. 3649.

I 9 10 11 T2 l_J

74 15 1,6 I1 J_õ

LY

20 2L 22 23 ¿¿t

25

EsquireDepositionServrces 800.770.3363

APPEARANCES

I

z J

For Plaintiff:

4

LAVü OFF]CES OF DONALD KILMER

q

B Y : D O N A L DE . J . K I L M E R , J R . ,

6

I26L Lincoln

Avenue, Suite

San Jose, Cal-ifornia

ESQ.

ILt

95L25-3030

(408) 998-8489

B 9 1_0 For

the

Defendant:

11 I2

OFFICE OF THE COUNTYCOUNSEL, COUNTYOF ALAMEDA

l-3

BY:

T4

Counsel-

15

I22t

L6

Oakland,

71

(510) 212-6134

RAYMOND L.

MacKAY,

Oak Stréet,

Suite

Deputy

County

450

California9461,2

1-B t9

For

the

Deponent

20

State

21,

BY:

Randy C. of

Rossi:

California,

Department

of

ALISON Y. MERRILEES,

22

Deputy

z5

P. O. Box 160487

24

Sacramento,

25

( 9 r _ 6 )2 6 3 - 0 8 0 2

Attorney

Cal_Ífornia

General_

9 5 8 j _6 - 0 4 8 7

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

Justice

1-

]NDEX OF EXAM]NAT]ON

z

=

BY MR. KTLMER

....5,

5

BY MR. MacKAY

....36

40

6 --oOo--

B 9 10

]NDEX OF EXH]BITS

l-1 1,2 13

PAGE DEPOSITTON

L4 15

A

ALAMEDA ORDINANCE

I6 L't lõ

79 20 2I 22 23 24 25

EsquifeDepositionServices 800.770.3363

I

BE IT

Z

commencing at

3

offices

of

4

Street,

First

5

rnêr LAURIE D. LERDA, a Certified

6

in

1

California,

R E M E M B E R E D ,t h a t the

hour

Esquire

and for

County

of

11

as hereinafter

was thereupon set

the

1B0l- I

CaJ_ifornia, Shorthand State

before Reporter of

ROSSI, whO, having

examined

been firSt

and interrogated

forth. --oOo--

T2 1-3

(Plaintiff's

L4 1

at

2006,

appeared

Cal-led aS ¿ ¡¡j1-na
Ll,

thereof,

Sacramento,

RANDY C.

duly

a.m.

March

Services,

personally

there

10

1

9:09

Sacramento,

B 9

of

Deposition

F1oor,

the

on Friday,

Exhibit

No. A was marked)

EXAMINAT]ON BY MR. KILMER: Okay.

l-J

O.

L6

case

L I

the

1B

District

t9

California.

of

Russell

County

of

Court

This

¿U

2t

Donald

22

plaintiff'

And this

Kilmer,

Allen Alameda for

is

the

is

deposition

in

Nordyke

versus

Mary V.

pending

in

United

Northern

plaintiff's

attorney

the

the

District

record

for

King States

of

deposition

of

the

and I

am

the

s.

23

Ray,

z¿l

MR. MacKAY:

25

My name is

you want

to

go ahead?

Okay.

Ir11

Raymond McKay.

introduce frm

myself.

a Deputy

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

and

1

County Counsef with

2

MS. MERRILEES: And Alison Deputy Attorney

4

Division

General_, counsel

for

MR. KILMER:

And the

the Fj_rearms

deponent

is

today

Randy Rossi. THE VüITNESS: Randy Rossi,

B

Firearms

Division

9

O.

BY MR. KILMER:

1-0

Mr.

1_1

A.

Yes.

I2

A.

So you

t_J

A

Yoq

1,4

O.

Okay.

15

you

I6

A.

Yes,

t7

O.

Okay.

1B

deposition

19

A.

Uh-huh.

ZU

O.

And your

2L

A.

The State

z¿

Office.

23

O.

And how long

24

A.

Twenty-five

25

and I'm

Merrilees

at the Department of Justice.

5 6

Alameda County Counsef's office.

Rossir

for

yoü've

the

Department

deposition

ground

know the

of

have

of

the

Justice.

we get

And before

had your

And you

Director

started, before?

taken

rules?

your

attorney

with

here

today? I

do. And yourre

notice

issued

by

present of

MR. MacKAY:

testifying the

to

a

plaintiff's?

employer?

Cal-ifornia

have

pursuant

Attorney

General-'s

you been employed

by

years. Coul-d we put

on the

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

record,

them?

you came, Allison,

1

before

¿

a courtesy

indicating

3

could just

stipulate

4

any objections

5

except perhaps objection

6

and that

he'd

such as relevancy

need to make those types of

here today.

MR. KfLMER:

So sti-pul-ated.

9

MR. MacKAY:

Are

MS. MERRILEES:

11

that

1"2

questi-on

waive if

therers

objections

15

that.

I6

along.

I1

change.

I

1B

are

I

Irm wÍl-l-ing that

1,9

between

you and I

20

to

l-awsuit.

trial

could

reserved

if

okay

trying

f

think

anywalt,

Ray.

the

to

do

speed things that

with

So stipul_ated.

¿5

MR. MacKAY:

That

objection

that

has

be

to

a party

acceptable?

doesn't

if

you

prevent

you wanted

t.o interrupt.

not

Theyrre

MR. KILMER:

al-lows us not

to

aqreement

22

just

the

as well?

Is

25

wil-l-ing

a stipulation

MR. MacKAY:

had a particular

of

all

that is

21,

¿4

form

today?

counsel

adopt

would

that,

the

to

aqree

just

of to

MR. KILMER:

this

at

no objection

vias thinking

Is

you saying

Are

that?

with

comfortabl-e

vou

any objection

MR. MacKAY:

L4

be reserved

form wil-l

B

10

we that

clear

on the record so it's

as to

if

to do it,

be willing

to the questions

we don't

objections

we asked or I asked counsel

to

make it,

we feel-

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

if

ít's

you it not

1

necessarv.

¿

3

THE WITNESS: the

MS. MERRILEES:

5

your

6

O. is

your

title

with

Director

9

A.

Okay.

IU

holding

1_1-

A.

12

the

l_5

don' t

1,4

O.

15

deposition

76

some feel-

of

Donrt

BY MR. KILMER:

A.

1B

kick

to

me under

worrv.

Whích one is

bad hip?

B

the

free

tabl-e.

4

'1,1

Yourre

the of

Al-l- right Department

the

Firearms

Any special

Mr . Rossi,

of

Justice?

what

Division.

qualifications

for

position?

that

Peace officer. job

.

announcement

recal-l-

f mean I if

that's

what

vou wj_sh.

to I

exactJ-y.

Well,

I'd

like

whoever is

and maybe the you

for,

position

coul_d go back

know,

of

Firearms

if

you

judge your

in

going this

of

read the have

case

to

in

being

expertise

Director

to

the

in

Department

,Justice.

19

So,

20

you did

2I

A.

z¿

of

23

O.

Okay.

¿ 1

A.

Special

25

department.

as a peace Okay.

could officer

Fi-ve years

tell_

üsr

for

example,

what

and where? peace

officer

for

the

City

San Jose.

Ialeapons and Tactics

Hired

on with

the

with

Department

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

that of

Justice

1

as a special

2

experience

3

activitíes.

A =

enforcement

5

of

agent

hras involved I

worked

ranks

management

6 Division

B

put out

to

Because

with

Bureau

Chief

approximately

9

the in

variety

a wide

2000 the Fírearms announcement was

for

somebody with

t-0

enforcement

experience

l_1_

familíarity

with

72

al_

13

0.

And your immediate supervisor

1_4

A.

Chief

15

O.

Okay.

a

t_o

A.

The attorney

I1

O.

Okay.

And your education?

1B

A

f

a B. A.

I9

University

in

20

management

from

- 1 ¿ L

certificate

22

A.

Can you please

¿5

A

Peace Officer

¿4

That's

25

of

a

law

of the Firearms Division.

They hrere looking

rraf-

my SVüAT

positions.

The job

the Director

of

SWAT team

my way up in

was established. for

their

and l-aw enforcement

And in

I

narcotics.

in

firearms

management l-aws,

law

as well-

as some

procedures,

ara

Deputy Attorney

General Steve Cooney.

And above him?

have

general.

Caf

hiqhest

Desree justice;

críminal-

from

the

woul-d be?

Poly,

from

Sacramento

a Masters

command college

State

in a

POST. tel-I

what

Standards

level

of

POST is? and Traininq.

certificate

in

California.

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

the

State

1

O.

I'm sorry,

¿

A.

In the State of California

3

officers.

4

O.

5

periodically?

6

A

Actually

7

O.

All

B

A.

But there

9

training

that

10

O.

Have you ever testified

11

A.

Yes.

'1,2

ô

In

what

fn

narcotics

f didn't

Are you required

l_J

in

peace

for

training

update that

my l-eve1 I'm

not.

riqht. are qualifier

I do keep current

area

L4

enforcement,

15

firearms.

1_6

O.

7l

expert

1ö

A.

Yes, sir.

19

O.

AII

¿v

as the

2L

Department of Justice?

22

A.

23

responsibil-ities

24

safety,

25

processes

respect

right.

Dinector

qualif.ications

expertise?

in

qeneral-

and cl-andestine

organized

for

l-ab

crime,

as an

firearms?

What are your responsibitities

of the Firearms

Division

To oversee the enforcement

firearm

as an expert?

before

So you have testified to

of

on.

of

desi-gner drugs,

AIJ- right. with

to

mean to interrupt.

as they

rel-ate

law enforcement,

to

of the

regulatory firearm,

firearm

background check

dangerous weapon and explosive

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

1

permittees,

2

et cetera.

3

0.

4

have to be familiar

5

laws ?

6

A.

Yes.

O.

And regul-ations?

B

A.

Yes.

9

O.

Al-1 right.

purchasers,

fírearm

And as part

11

little

I2

A.

Okay.

13

O.

One thing

1 =

discuss

you

of

gun shows for

I woul-d l-ike to do initial-l-y

loophole?

1,7

A.

Yes.

1_B

O.

What does

T9

A.

Well,

20

loophole

that

21,

this

22

benefit

z5

O.

24

states

25

A

to

that

a

other

to

a

states

occur

than

without

the

check. say

California,

Cal-ifornia

gun show

vou'Ì

refers

Þurchases

is

case.

concept

mean to

common in

a backqround

and not

the

typically

firearm

Now, when you

with

term

me it

j-s more

where

has come up in this

famil-íar

76

In

and federa.l_ firearm

here.

Are

of

state

knowledge to just

a concept that

state

you

I want to narrow the focus

your broad range of

l-5

dealers,

of those responsibil-ities wÍth

t_0

bit

firearm

that

they

why is

different

occur

in

other

that? from

manv states

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

the

it I s a ner^rfirearm

1

whet.her

¿

transfer,

3

just

4

dealer,

therefore,

5

carried

out.

6

O.

those

transfers

a federally,

but the

there?

9

A.

Correct.

1_0

O.

Okay.

11

must

72

background

IJ

A.

Correct.

L4

O.

Is

15

California?

T6

A.

I I

a.

1B

use a hypothetical

go through

-

L9

background

California

a licensed

check

there

an exception

checks

in

which

incl_udes

qun shows in

for

are

20

for

ZL

Nevada Iaw,

22

and one person

23

Ird

24

ther:e I s nothing

that

25

conducting

transaction?

to

not

in

admires

are

another from

the

you to

asking

two people

buy that

that

lrm aware of. going to

here.

two people

but

a

period?

exampfe, I'm just

I'm

isn't

all_ gun purchases

Okay.

example,

fully

period;

Not that

ff

l-ike

is

An exception. So, for

not

a,

firearm

check

dealer

and a waiting

party

through

lícensed

al-so a waiting

So in

private

or

occur

background

There's

B

must

a state

Now, there's

California.

purchase

you,

prevents

in

State

Nevada,

be an expert the

state

personfs as far them

of

of

in Nevada

gun and says as you know,

from,

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

you

know,

1 !

A.

General-l-y speaking that's

2

I to

the

believe

sel-ler

I

responsibility

5

generally

6

rror there's

if

B

California

9

transaction

right.

t_l-

transaction?

go to

they

dealer

MR. MacKAY:

check,

the

wanted

to

conduct

would to

t4

A.

That

legaIIy.

15

0.

In

16

selling

1,7

requirements

?

1B

A.

order

T9

a federal-

20

license

2t

centralized

líst

22

part

State

¿J

registered

24

O.

25

to

correct

order

to

firearms

In

in

firearms

if

be in

be in

which

with

the

want

to

federal-

what

is

Cal-ifornia

narrow

to

of

are

you

the

buying

and

the

have

to

have

to

have

a local

be on the

a background

Franchise

law.

thac

You have

You have

of

a

be required

business

business

l-icense.

reguj-red.

the

the

California,

to

of

State

Legally. Legally.

is

stitl

conduct

BY MR. KILMER:

just

background

in

A.

I

or

But,

But

1_3

of

sell_er.

as the

parti-es

that,

a fj-censed

72

the

Thank you.

private like

to

as far

be a felon

some prohibitions

is

of

known to

no prohibitions.

if

10

there

part

on the

All

0.

somebody is

bel-ieve

speaking,

correct.

check

by

the

have

to

be

and you Tax Board. focus

You mentioned

for

a second

here

somethi_nq cal__Ied

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

1

a federal

Z

federal-

f

in

f j-rearms licenses

firearms

A. different

6

al^/afe Of .

1

0.

B

li-cense

9

those

that

Are

there

permit

would

any other engage

somebody to

transactions?

Other

5

l-icense.

federal-

licenses

cl-assifications

If m thinking like

of

in

FFL's,

more along

a curio

relic

an FFL. but

There's

not

I'm

that

l_ike a col_lectors

license.

And what

are

for?

A.

11_

nuances

L2

curio

1-3

my general

I4

O.

1_5

state

16

that

1,1

firearms

in

1_B

A.

There

L9

but

20

types

Irm of

f 'm not

--

1_0

federal

and relic

l-aw.

21,

Generally

and col-l-ection

is

guess

I

just

there

I

various

bel_ieve

and repair,

it's

but

for s

that'

really

For

wanted

have

one license

jump next

to

a counterpart for

to

to

dealing

Cal-ifornia? is

permits

yourre

instance,

22

\^reapon permit

z5

so there

are

24

0.

Okay.

25

certif

generally

there's

different

firearms

icate

I

Does California

therers of

law.

i_n the

understanding. Then

or

an expert

versus

depending

one license, upon what

selling.

automatic

weapon permit,

hand quns

typical

and

long

sel_l guns,

differences.

of

But

therers

el i oi h'i

'l 'ij-

a threshol-d

l-icenses

rz --

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

or

1

A.

2

0.

3

to

4

correct?

tr

A.

That's

6

A.

Vühat are

Correct. that be in

cafl-ed

the

all

Californi-a

business

correct

9

Cal-if ornia?

name for

1_0

A.

11

eligibility

I2

reall-y

13

that

I4

Yes.

the

f of

a term

eligibility.

on the

fs

sel_] quns

to

central_ized

you wiIl,

umbrel-l-a, íf other

three

0.

What are

those

requj_rements?

15

A.

Thatrs

76

Franchise

1,7

l-icense,

1B

eligibility,

20

other

2T

the

city

yourre

than

there

on the

anything

have

a federal

regj-stered

with

the

22

with

rules,

¿J

California

24

eJ-igibility?

25

A.

l-ocal

is

reguíres

Not

in

to

get

plus

that

Franchise

qet

to

the

which

is

ensure

of

a certificate l_ist. has

l_icense,

Tax Board extra

of

to

do

be

and comply

certificate

certificate

the

firearm

a dealer

anything that

required,

federal

central_ized

firearms

there

of

witl

that's

and the

you have that,

the

reguirements.

l-icense

Tax reguirement

Is

that

l_ist

that

the

once

that

there

Once vou have a certificate

you meet

I9

is

firearms;

mentioned

a l-icense

you're

the

selling

have

have to

correct.

a certificate

B

of

deal-ers

that of

eligibility.

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

1

0.

Okay.

z

security

and fi-xed location

3

imposed by 1ocal

4

A.

No.

q

there

there

6

adhered to,

1

the centralized

B 9

Sor âny reguirements

or insurance,

their

responsibility

must be related

directÌy

to

líst.

Once yourre

a fu1ly

l-icensed firearm

then those

requirements

1_0

inspection

process,

11

followed.

72

0.

13

hold a gun show in Cafifornia?

74

A.

Yes.

15

A.

Okay.

76

Penal- Code I take

I I

A.

Tt is.

1B

O.

Now, you said

t9

appointed

20

Cal-ifornÍa

2L

2000?

22

A.

Uh-huh.

23

O.

That's

24

Enforcement Act was passed in

25

ir?

there

to

those are

Those are imposed by 1oca1 law, but

but not necessarily

Is

of building

kick

in

our

and through

üre ensure that

those

things

a l-icensj-ng requirement

And the authority

for

dealer,

are

to host or

that

is

in

the

it?

Dírector

that of

you applied

Firearms

Department of Justice

and b/ere

for

Division

for

around the year

the same year that

the Gun Show

the tegislature;

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

wasn't

1

A

A8295, yes.

2

O.

Are you familiar

3

A

Yes.

4

ô

V[hat would be a good working

5

gun shohr?

6

A

It's

attend

a place

a venue

I

often

9

f irearm 0.

11

Franchise

t2

certificate

13

show,

T4

Enforcement

Okay.

And so in

Tax Board, of

loca1

eligibility,

in

somebody also

has

L6

Irm going to

unless

all-

the

Not

all-

20

I'm

going

statutory

22

Calj-fornia

Section

25

Security

to

order

comply

can

and

l_icensed

the

to

with

FFL,

the

and the a gun

hold the

Gun Show

of

all

them. to

are,

expect you to know

but

the

I'm

going

to

reguiremenrs

Probably

most

are.

of

them.

go ahead and show you

some

1aw from the 2006 Edition

of Standard

Codes, the Éenat Code from Lexis-Nexis. I'm

24

of

ordinances

I don't

you do know what

Z I

to

requJ-rements

L9

23

public

dísplayed

benefit

of a

Act?

Yes.

t-B

are

addition

the

15

what

the

definition

generaÌ

the

firearms

throuqh

statute?

deal-ers.

1_0

L1

that

by which

whereby

transferred

with

going

12071,.4, Act,

to

the

open it

up to

penal

Gun Show Enforcement

and give

that

to

you.

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

Code and

1

A.

Okay.

2

A.

And if

3

are some of the requirements

in addition

4

being

a gun show must comply

5

with

6

A.

you can when you're

a standard

dea.l-er that

to be l-awful-l-v li-censed in Okay.

Generally

ready recite

certificate

9

0.

California?

a person cannot carry

of eligibility

a different

11

deal-er?

t2

A.

13

will,

t4

O.

AII

15

A.

To do so they

16

famil-iar

with

1.1

a miflion

1_B

listing

T9

that

certificate

f t I s the but it's

same l-evel- of

a different

than being

a

you

scruti-ny , if

cl_assifj_cation.

Thank you. have to certify

liability

of events

That's

a second.

that

policy;

they

that that

they

they have

they provide

intend

to host

are

us a

during

vear. Before

¿v

they

2L

provides

us a list.ing

22

transact

firearms.

z5

ensure

24

out

25

for

t h e 1 2 0 ' 7 1 . 1 -p r o v i s i o n s ;

do1lar

by us,

of eligibility

right.

out a

as a gun show promoter.

Let me stop you there

10

just

to

gun show unless they have a certificate U

what

that

firearms

they

have of

such

an evenL,

individuals

We do a check are

fully

the

promoter

who intend on those

l_icensed

people

and able

to to

to

carry

stioul-ate

that

transactions.

MS. MERRILEES:

Coul-d we iust

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

1

1 " 2 0 1 1 , . 4p r o v i d e s

2

for

3

O.

4

wê, whoever is

BY MR. KILMER: going

what's

to

B 9

later

whether

10

think

itrs

11

they're

72

not

1_3

A.

L4

requirements

15

the

1

l_o

-

submitted

to

law

a L

I

submÍtted

to

us.

or

my cl-ients

are

1B

I

think

I

1,9

I

think

the

20

their

2I

person,

22

that

that

25

prior

also

to

the

how the

a security

estj-mated

number of

all

he knows what

that

times

producer plan

or

of

think,

I

entrances,

shows,

contact

be there

and security

must be submitted

shouldn't

exits,

a number of

be

plan

that

vendors

numbers,

part

must

number of

of

out

carries

that

A copy

attendees,

dates,

to

f

compliance.

a number of

Those show f

teJ-ephone

in

we can say whether

enforcement.

guess,

Thatrs

z4

are

There's

going

are

complying.

There

locations,

are

to make sure that

establish

do before

relating

facility.

testimony

ask him some questions

to

to

to

that

important

of the gun show promoters

my clients

important

Okay.

23

not

required

those.

.

going

Then Irm

it's

read this

required

ri q l: l nu ç¡ a

¡v n v lm l r ynr]

rrr

him reciting

I think

required

because Mr. Rossi- is lu- ¡hr çaJr ¡ l r a! ' içn

rul-es and requirements

a gun show without

hosting

understands 6

the general

peace

is say

and

officers

personnel.

plan

of the event security

not l-ess than fift.een

to the commencementof the gun show.

EsquireDepositionServrces 800.770.3363

davs It

shall

1

be approved

2

event.

the

manager prior

is

responsible

requirements

of

listing

of

B

involves

9

reguirements not

that

participate

1_1

that

who are

if

they

not,

the

written

1-3

a signed

1 /l f,=

part

1_5

the

16

and secured

1"1

of

the

fi-rearm

1B

to

the

fi-rearm.

contracts

of

posting

premises

t9

with

are in

they

these,

to

us

of

do not

meet

the

these may

dealers,

all

gun show vendors.

That

that's the

firearms

cl-eared

of

20

the public

2!

accompaniment by a parent,

22

guardian.

¿3

parties

z¿r

That persons possessing

25

have in their

age of

That firearm

the taq

al-so a requirement

that

18 may attend grandparent

transfers through

There's on the onto

carried

any

prevents

that

have

should

required

and an identification

are conducted

a

be carrying

producers

checked,

under the

to

the

a manner

There's

of

responsibility

they,

requirement

producer.

the

for

event.

They shal-I

t2

going

Their

that

in

provide

they

transactions.

insuring

the

to

L2071-.4.

i-ndividual-s

firearm

also

gun show vendors

I mentioned

out

10

facility

prospective

5 6

the

The producer

informing

4

by

or

ammunition discharge is

attached

no member of without legal

between private

a l-icensed dealer.

fj-rearms on the premise

possession,

immediat.e possession

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

must a

1

government issued

2

upon request

3

peace of f i-cer.

4

photo

identification

to the security

5

readily

vÍsible

6

parking

lot

parking

l-ot of this

location

stating

at

that

facility

the general requirements of

9

O.

Sorry to put

10

A.

That's okav.

11

A.

I just

is

post

shall

to the

fi-rearms on

of

Those are

a crime.

you through that.

of your duties

1-3

Firearms

I4

Department of

Justice

1_5

complying with

these

t6

A.

We do.

11

O.

Thank you.

l-õ

out and inspected

l-9

A.

Yes.

¿v

O.

What are the usual

2t

that

22

A.

23

county fair

24

O.

Okay.

25

A.

There are some private

on the record. of the

as Director

do you send out personnel

Division,

j-n a

1,201L.4.

want to put it

As part

or

each entrance

transfers

B

L2

officer

gun show producer

That the

it

and display

to ensure that

with

the

gun shows are

rules?

Have you ever personally

gone

shows to ensure compliance?

venues for

the

gun shows

you know about or have been to yourself? Theyrre

often

g6¡nr-rz fa¡ilir-iaq

such

as

buildíngs.

venues as well,

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

but

1

generally

¿

O.

3

Nordyke?

4

they're

or county property.

on city

Okay.

Are you familiar

A.

Yes, I

am.

5

0.

Have you ever been to any of their

6

A.

I don't

O.

Have you sent personnel

shows?

I have personally.

believe

B

ensure

9

A.

Yes.

10

O.

Are

11

Nordykes

of

I2

earlier?

13

A.

As far

as promoter

L4

0.

Do the

Nordykes

15

cooperative

t6

there's

L1

shows ?

1_B

A.

As far

1_9

O.

Have you

20

of

2L

A.

Yes,

22

0.

Vühat other

ZJ

at?

24

A.

Nevada.

25

0.

Are

the

Russ and Sal-lie

with

shows to

to their

compliance?

you aware of some of

wÍth

the

of I

requirements

as Irm ever

by the you recited

that

requirements,

as far

as you

l-aw enforcement

somebody doing

State

any violations

in

something

know are

the

event

ilIegally

aware they attended

Do.

at

they

that their

are.

any

gun

shows outside

California? have.

thev

states

different

have

than

attended

the

ones

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

gun shows

in

I

California

Z

A.

Yes,

3

O.

Can you tell

4

zra2

5

A.

6

without

1

much less

B

and security

? they

are.

party

Private

the benefit

some of

transactions

items

would

1_1

under

federal

1,2

radical-

13

less

L4

0.

on the part

be i1legal law.

under

There

el-ement as f ar

tends

as hate

Do you know whether

are,

many

law

and some

be more of

to

materials.

are

bought

and sold

at

or not these

back

71

A.

Yes,

we know some do.

1B

0.

Okay.

1_9

investigations

ZU

it

21"

Nevada

¿3

Therers

a

Just

much

the

guns

control-.

end up coming

24

common

Ìaw enforcement

of

California

I6

ZJ

are very

The weapons and paraphernalia

that

differences

personnel.

10

22

the

of a Joackqroundcheck.

oversight

9

me what

that

people

I or

into

want

anything

who live

you

like

in

compromise that,

California

they're

MS. MERRILEES: why people

gun shows of

but go to

Can vou

ft

any sor

is

the

unregulated? answer

that

go? THE WITNESS:

Nevada

California?

donrt

shows because

some of

would

require

some

speculation.

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

about

1

O.

¿

to

3

you

BY MR. KILMER: your

best

You can

fine.

frm entitled

call_ it

specul_ation

if

hrant'

4 5

answer.

That's

MR. MacKAY:

Obiection.

Calls

for

specul-ation.

6

THE WITNESS: are

much further

in

B

shows that

9

and paraphernalia

the

It

appears

distance

motivation that

in

from

must aren't

that

the

be to

the

shows

Cal_ifornia firearms

secure

availabl_e

in

i ' i

I

10

California.

11

O.

T2

go so far

l_J

unregulated,

1"4

than

15

A.

Yes.

76

O.

So in

t'7

of

1B

A.

Vüe have

t9

O.

And in

20

theorize

that

27

gun shows in

California

22

go to

to

z5

of

the

to

shows in

but

are

certainl_y

they

for

f

don't

want

to

Nevada are less

regulated

Cal-ifornía?

fact

firearm

Nevada

So,

the

shows in

illegal

Uh-huh.

say that

Nevada gun shows may be a source trafficking

found fact

that

try

in to

would

a reduction

it in

be the

case.

be reasonabl-e the

may in

and get

California?

number

fact

engaged

in

l-eqitimate

of

cause

to

people

the

to

commerce

firearms? MR. MacKAY:

z4

25

BY MR. KILMER:

fncomplete

hypothetical,

speculation.

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

calls

BY MR. KILMER:

.L

A.

2

said

you can try

3

f'll-

try

4

A.

5

speculate

6

A.

ff

and answer the question,

I understand what vou said and f'd

I rm entitled

Okay.

B

O.

9

judge can sustain

BY MR. KfLMER:

to that.

it,

11

^

In that

1,2

means to

sel-l- and transfer

13

fashion.

T4

some people

15

firearms

gun shows afford

such

and to

whife

IO

Okay.

Are

1 1

Ird dealers

L9

people

in

l-ike

who comply

Are they

¿U

2I

people

22

l-aws ?

ZJ

^

They are.

¿4

o.

Okay.

25

properly

licensed

in

of

state

there

likely

get

and, with

back of

the

in

to

parties

--

to

firearms.

strike

California I'm

that their

offload

any

a

a convenient

purchase

course,

that.

gun

speaking

about

Iaw.

an important

California

and the

woul-d speculate

you ar^rare of

to

general

private

firearms

shows I

woul-d go out

later

you can give me your best

but

ansh/er.

Vüithout

I disagree.

You can object

10

a

have to

to answer your question.

MR. MacKAY: No, yourre not.

1B

otherwise,

and rephrase the question.

I

1

you understand what I

part

comply with

of ensuring

that

the Cal-ifornia

gun

You mentioned earlier, and operating

for

gun dealers

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

example, make it

I

easÍer

for

private

parti-es

2

A.

Uh-huh.

3

O.

Vüith the waiting

4

checks ?

q

A.

Correct.

6

o.

In

in

fact,

since

every gun dealer

B

himsel-f that

9

proper

periods

is

and background

you can't

put

in Cal-ifornia,

ensure proper

11

A.

L2

that

l_3

O.

t4

agents go out and, for

15

periodically

T6

A.

Uh-huh.

L7

O.

But the everyday transactions

1_B

pl-ace are pretty

L9

dealers

ZU

with?

2L

A.

Correct.

22

O.

That would include

23

that

24

A.

Uh-huh.

25

O.

These deal-ers also

Along wj-th our inspection

I guess what I mean is instance,

much the

to make sure that

that

your field

audit

or inspect complyíng?

that

responsibility the

can be lawfullv

take

of the

laws are being

that

staff

yês.

deal-ers to make sure they're

firearm

age and

correct?

do subsequent investigations,

the

the dealer

a fi-rearms

transaction;

Correct.

is

f .D. and proper

l_0

that

agent

a field

it

of paperr^rork for

col-lection

guns?

to buy and sell

complied

the deal-er ensuring sold

in

Cal-ifornia?

take fingerprints

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

for

the

1

transaction,

z

A.

Uh-huh.

3

O.

Arenrt

4

demonstrate

safe handlinq

of

5

transaction

is

for

o

people

1

A.

They are in both venues, yês.

B

O.

And the

9

Code?

correct,

I think

the dealers

concluded,

how a revolver

A.

Correct.

11

O.

Vühen you

L2

þrr¡

IJ

A

L4

themselves.

15

0.

T6

demonstrate

t1

instance,

1_B

insert

t9

firearm

20

A

2T

demonstration

22

a.

z5

and

24

direct

25

I

al-so required

correct?

to

fj_rearms before instance,

the

to show

or a hand gun work?

authority

10

a thumb print;

for

say both

that

venues,

is

in

Pena.l-

the

do you mean

what

1-haf?

f meant gun shows as well- as the dealerships

Okay.

fs

the how to

possible

it

safe

handling

check

and remove the

it

that

magazine

for of

somebody to

a firearm,

it's

unloaded,

without

having

for how to the

present? I

don't

bel-ieve

of safety

Letrs the

smal-l- type your

bel-ieve

here

Not

as far

as a ful-L

feacures.

I'm going to

attention

beginning

so.

again,

to about

Penaf here

impose upon your eyes and I'm

g-oing to

Code Section and take

1,2071 and

a few minutes

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

1

to

2

for

3

A.

Okay.

4

0.

You seemed a l-ittle

q

question.

6

possible,

7

demonstration

B

present

read

it.

Therers

demonstrating

a descrj-ption

the

You said would

9

not

handting

unsure

you believe

that

be possible

to

required

by

the

O.

11

testimony?

I2

A.

t_J

referring

to this.

L4

generally

demonstrating

15

firearm

1"6

massive amount of,

1'7

et cetera.

1B

O.

Okay.

I9

A.

ff

20

you could

2I

O.

22

Section

23

subsections

24

ql-:i-rrIa

BY MR. KILMER:

Yes.

repeat Irm

I

the

it

last

woul_dn't be the

without

his

the

the

you just

testimonv. your

meant

safe handling

of a

unl-ess you just

difficult

had a

referring

to

this

specifically,

your question.

correct

gun

know you were

I didn't

to

this

specific

and l-et me see if

believe

of

you know, computer graphics,

referring

1201L,

hand guns.

statute

I thought

yourre

of

Can you please restate

Irm sorry,

would be very

procedures

the

perform

MR. MacKAY: That misstates

10

25

safe

of

here

it's

because

I

qet

this

Penal

Code

the is

a l_onq

P e n a l - C o d e 1 , 2 0 7 1 -B B ,

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

if

1

Subsection

2

requirements

3

A

Okay.

4

O.

Would it

q

comply with

6

gun present?

B, Subsection

C.

Okav.

are the ones that

Those

I'm referrinq

to.

Great.

be possible

to demonstrate or to

the requirements

there

without

having

a

No.

B

Okay.

9

And getting

1_0

part

1_1

Deal-ers

)-z

l-hor¡?

of

the

Thank you. back

ensuri-ng

also

to

deal_ers and how they

compliance

administer

with

Cal_if ornia

hand gun safe

tests,

are

laws.

don't

Uh-huh.

l_J

L4

O.

15

to

I6

personts home?

I1

A

Uh-huh, yes.

1B

ô

It's

L9

under

20

obliterated

They also ensure that

col-lect

there

are gun safes

against

federal

law, seria]

the Iaw in

too,

to

number;

from purchasers

affidavits

buy is

for

guns at

Cal-ifornia

or

sell

that

I

the

believe

a gun with

an

correct?

That I s correct.

2L 22

O.

ZJ

woul-d have

24

ensure

25

A

That

that

to

woul-d be another be present

the

serial_

during numbers

instance the

where

transaction

hrere intact?

Correct.

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

a clun to

going

I'm

f,

z

Exhibit

3

know when youtre

A.

Okay.

5

Okay.

you

ask

a l-ook at

marked.

Vühat f 'm showing you is

that

1

by Alameda County in

1999.

B

amended version,

one that

the subject

9

take

And let

me

done

6

is

to

been previously

fts

4

to

of

the

this

l-awsuj_t. This is

the ordinance was passed

It

is

actually

in

force

the now.

riqht

ask you to review Subsection Dt the

ffd

1_0

definition

11

firearm

L2

an exception

1_3

ir?

I4

A

It

15

a.

The definition

L6

somewhat

narrobrer

I1

ordinance,

of firearm.

under this for

ordinance antiques,

doesnrt

Yes.

1,9

I mean,

of the

doesn't

of

appear to make

and reli-cs,

does

e^

firearms

under state

definition

1aw

under this

it?

for

example,

20

classify

an antique

27

firearm,

does it?

22

A

It

¿J

r\

Okay.

Have you

z.!

before?

25

A

f

not

defines

have

definition

curios

appear

than

isnrt

1_B

And this

state

revol-utionary

i t

separately, ever

law war

doesnrt

fl-intlock

as

yes.

seen this

ordinance

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

Do you know whether

1 I

O.

2

have passed similar

or not other

counties

ordinances?

A.

I believe

4

0.

Okay.

5

San Mateo Board of Supervisors?

6

A.

Yes, I do.

O.

V ü h e nt h e y w e r e a t t e m p t i n g

some have.

Do you remember testifying

B

ordinance?

9

A.

Uh-huh.

10

O.

Can you recount

1_1

testimony

L2

qrznnnq'i

1_3

A.

1,4

to convey how the State

15

controls

L6

regulatory

I1

compare that

t_B

that

LY

0.

20

testimony

21,

A.

22

making the decision

23

fully

24

that

25

counry.

for

before

to pass this

the

other

us the substance of your just

to the Board of Supervisors,

a

q ?

The substance

of my testimony of California

our involvement standpoint

and

gun shows from both

the

of a California

may be operating

attempt

regul-ates

and enforcement

to that

Uh-huh.

in

was to

firearm

out of a store

and

standpoint

front

deal-er setting.

And the purpose of giving

that

was? ülas to try

informed

to ensure that

the,

that

woul-d be fulJ-y informed,

as to

may be associated

any control-s with

those more

or l-ack of controls

havi-ng gun shows in

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

their

L

O.

2

Supervisors

3

their

Did you express in

to the Board of

San Mateo Countv as to whether or not

ordinance

hras necessarv

MR. MacKAY:

4

any opínion

to ensure gun safetv?

Objection,

Ã

O.

BY MR. KILMER:

6

A.

f

donf t

I

way or

the

other.

ra¡al

It

I

is

nitri¡g

vague. a vague question. any recommendation

one

B

a.

okay.

9

A.

My purpose was to convey to them the ru1es,

10

regulations

1_1

O.

1,2

the

t_J

Justicer

I4

purposes, dontt

15

A.

Uh-huh.

I6

O.

For instance

I1

A.

Yes.

1B

O.

79

television

¿U

A.

Yes.

2I

0.

Okay.

22

regarding

¿5

are they

¿4

shows?

25

and l-aws concerning

Okay. Firearms

As part

Division

gun show sales.

of your duties

as the head of

the California

Department of

of

yoü al-so regulate

firearms

for

entertainment

you?

used as props in motion picture

and

production?

What are some of the regulations

firearms different

for

entertainment

purposes

than the regulations

MR. MacKAY:

Objection,

vague,

and how

regarding

overbroad.

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

gun

1

MS. MERRILEES:

Z

T H E V I ] T N E S S:

Yeah,

woufd

refresh

--

3

not

4

a.

5

and f rl-1 try

I

have

to

You want

BY MR. KILMER:

6

Firearms productions

video

B

studios

and their

9

lack

a better

of

pretty

the

actors

11

are

l-oaned those

L2

acting.

15

you were

done.

L6

A.

BY MR. KILMER:

L7

regulates

1B

correct?

interrupt.

2T

it

22

O.

z5

studios

24

tel-evision

25

A.

questions

down because

event

exotic

highly

the

of

is

firearms productions

the

So,

I

State

but

job

sorry, I

of

of

f

didn,t

thought

California is

There I s at ask

then

picture

motion

transactions;

would

you to

in

motion

Do motion pictures

break

picture

and

?

Yes.

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

that

l_east

compound Okay.

and

weapons for

their

I,m

O bj e c t j _ o n .

there. it

But

picture

regulated, in

and those

BY MR. KILMER: use

motion

Go ahead and finish.

MR. MacKAY: four

of

question

the

owned by the

Objection.

mean to

20

in

weapons as part

L4

1,9

used

participants

MR. MacKAY:

I 'm

guestion.

of

possession

and the

that

me withdraw

much are

word are

10

13

are

a minute.

my memory on the

line

that

take

probabJ_y should.

I

Let

a different

to

1

0.

¿

actors

3

advance

4

And they and the

sometimes l - e n d t h o s e

participants

a storv

l-ine?

A.

Yes.

Usually

5

O.

And the State

6

activity;

is

that

A.

Yes.

B

O.

Okay.

9

California

through

the

shows in

that

I'd

11

Okay.

IZ

MR. KILMER:

have to

the

mv memorv.

fine. qo off

Vüe'lI record

the

Vrle're back

15

And the

was refreshinq

CalÍfornia

1B 19

I I'l-l

refine

20

witness

Penal

Code that

we referred

guess

I

repeat

it

J - a wr e g u l a t i n g

22

connection

with

23

production;

is

his with to

the

earl_ier.

my question

and

somewhat.

There is

2t

record.

on the

my l_ast question

need to

record.

discussion)

BY MR. KILMER:

regarding

of

activity?

I4

1,1

to

requl_ates that

how does the State

refresh

That's

(Off

recoll-ection

order

a prop master.

of Cal_ifornia

How does --

10

L6

the

correct?

requlate

J-J

in

quns to

a set of regulations

or statutory

the possession and use of firearms motion picture that

in

and tel_evision

correct?

24

Correct.

25

And you've refreshed

your recollection

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

as to

1

what some of those requirements

¿

statute?

3

A

Correct.

4

0.

Can you give

6

of

6

A.

7

that

B

in motion

picture

9

gienerally

speaking it

10

may apply

for

11

and generally

T2

Justice

13

not prohibited

1,4

approved this

15

loaned

1"6

picture

I7

O.

1B

there

1,9

and for

20

television

those

me a synopsis

as to

what

relates

f reviewed

Penal Code Section

to the loaning

of

theatrical_

firearms

productions

the use

and

says someone over the age of 2L

a permit

by the

speaking that

Department of Justice

enables

from possessing

the Department of

firearms,

they're

that

once

would enable them to possess firearms

to him or her for television So,

1"2081-

for

to checl< our systems to ensure that

the production

itrs

for

a different

requirements

to holding

havj-ng a permit

for

loaning

and motion picture Vüou1d that

22

A.

Similar.

23

O.

If

24

f'd

be a fair

you could

you to

of motion

productj_on.

or theatrical

although

are similar

like

some

reguJ-ations are? Yes.

2I

25

are by readi-ng that

look (Off

take at

the

purpose,

a gun show

a firearm

for

production. statement?

a l-ook at

subsection

--

Exhibit off

record)

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

the

A again. record.

1

BY MR. KILMER:

O.

I 'd

z 5

Subsection

4

property

l

and theatrical

comply

a l-ook at

purports

ordinance

moti-on picture,

for

with

opinion,

the

Penal- Code Section

11

firearms

T2

producti-on;

13

A.

That's

I4

O.

Mr.

IC

firearms

as a hobbv?

L6

A.

I

77

0.

You do not.

Okav.

MR. KILMER:

No further

r

1_B

still-

vj_deo, dance

engage

is

that

in

have

L2081 though

the

loaning

in

of

and tel_evision

correct?

my opinion. do you personally

Rossi,

col_l_ect

do not.

questions.

EXAMINATION BY MR. MacKAY: Good morning,

0.

2t 22

lawfully

moti-on picture

for

I9 ZU

F,

to have an

somebody woul_d still

order

l

Subsection

television,

10

to

record.

production.

your

In to

on the

the possession of guns on county

for

B

take

back

four.

6

9

you to

like

Now, this exception

We're

As I I

represent

the

Irm

¿J

24

County,

25

follow-up

said

earlier,

questions.

in

County

Counsel's

Rossi. my name is

defendants

Deputy

County

Mr.

this

case.

Counsel- with

Office.

And the

only

Raymond McKay.

I

Alameda

do have a few admonition,

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

1

counsel might

z

don't

3

ask a question

4

know and Irl-l- try

have mentioned

purport

it

to be an expert you don't

in

you just

understand,

to do better.

6

A.

You were asked some questions

I

venues.

You mentioned

9

private

I me

let

Okay?

Great.

county

sor if

firearms¡

A.

B

because I

earlier,

Thank you.

and city

fair

some typical

buildings

about gun show

venues including

and property

and

venues.

10

I wanted to

ask you what are you referring

11

to when you mentJ-on private

L2

A

13

private

1"4

Veterans

15

few others.

16_

O.

Okay.

t'7

A

Thatrs

1_B

O.

And those

19

A.

They do.

20

O.

You were

21"

have

22

earl-ier

In

to

23

of

about

25

Nordykes

such

Foreign

as

T befieve

Vùar Memorial

what

I

occur

in

the

so sometimes

question,

if

whether in

I

think or

not

connection,

mj-sstate

the

I

there

were

either

at

one is

at

it,

of

are

a

California?

to

I

again refer

to

again

correct

r^ias you

were

any vj_olations in

a

and there

about, have

testj-mony

held

to.

State

a question

asked

f

hal-t

was referring

follow-up

But

24

gun shows are

some l-ocales

facilities

venues?

connection

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

me. asked

by with

the the

I

Nordykes or their

2

violations.

gun shows and you said

That prompted me to think

no promoter

of

a

follow-up. 4

Vüere there

other that

5

promoter

violatj-ons

6

A.

I rm aware

result

of

our

of

made.

9

O.

fn

t_0

A.

f

11

specific

details.

1 a L L

A.

If

bel-ieve

L4

an ongoing

investigation

1-5

may be out

there,

L6

you qive

L1

that

20

O.

You were

2t

and some sections

22

r^/as necessary

23

educatj-on

25

would

or

to

don't

event?

get

to

asked

about

and whether do or

compromise

tel_l those

to

you

72011 of the or

üsr

can

arrests

on that.

the

actual

that

gun show?

a Nordyke

back

display

the

Penal- Code gun

physical

show those

requirements.

And you said would need an actual

to

the

at

with

privilege

about

was it

for

to

j-nformation

have

safety

able

were

check

again want

Nordyke

as a

event?

to

any other

you're

if

example,

I

Nordvke

meaning f

where arresrs

woul-d have

or

but

during

A.

24

counsel,

me any more

L9

the

abl-e to

same admonition,

For

I

than

aware of?

efforts

with

so.

yourre

other

a few instances

connection

IJ

1B

you're

investi-qative

B

occurred

viol_ations

for

one of the provisions

physical

possession

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

you

of a qun

1

itsel-f ; correct?

z

Correct.

3

My follow-up

a

educational

5

demonstrated,

6

gun?

1

asked earlier.

B

A.

9

certaj-n provision

question:

provisi-ons

Itrs

1,2071that

essentially

section.

11

O.

t2

provision

l_J

example

I4

met or

15

present?

1_6

A

Qrr ra

L1

O.

Okay.

Okay. you

if of

of safety

feel

one of

satisfied

the

19

MR. MacKAY:

22 z5

in

¿¿l

about

25

coul-d be

this

would

you

in

that

look

maybe give

provisi_ons

that

that

me one

coul_d be again

Could

we so off

gun

record?

Sure.

(Off-the-record

discussion)

.

BY MR. MacKAY:

Vrle're back

on the

Mr.

Rossi,

r^ray:

Are

education

at

physical

actual

a

Thank you.

THE VüITNESS:

O.

is

the

a

L2071 to see if

you can to

without

t_B

20

to

or

of what you were

testing

you --

Could

shown without

the converse

f wouÌd have to refer

safety

could be

conveyed or otherwise

10

2T

in

Are there

let.

or

rephrase

provisions

there

regarding

fol-l-owed

me then

the

use

met without

record.

the

question

the

penal

of

hand

quns

the

."trr.f

in

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

Code that

1

possession

¿

A.

There

3

storage,

general

4

safety

q

hand gun.

6

O.

of

that

gun?

the are

rul_es of

could

And what

requirements

some aspects

without

Irl_l_ l_abel

the

hands

B

coul-d be done at

any time

9

completed

incl-uding that

the

a fair

Woul_d you repeat

1"2

a.

Yes. Vühat f rve

74

the

1 q

A.

Uh-huh.

O.

thatf

'1,6

educational

t7

it

1B

time

1,9

before

¿U

A.

Correct.

21"

O.

okay.

doesn't of

24 25

the

use of

on that

transaction

as well?

that.

the

on portJ_ons

hands

of

process

s somethj-ng

sa1e,

but

MR. MacKAY: questions.

is

period.

that

have to

coul_d be completed,

be completed

can be completed

at

at

Those were

Thank you,

my foltow-up

sir.

FURTHER EXAMINAT]ON BY M R . K I L M E R : You stated

in

response

to

Mr

Mr.T{a rr I q

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

the

any time

delivery?

22 23

call-ed

necessarily

the

before

statement

A.

the

somethi-ng

waiting

11

13

that's

safe

hand gun

safety,

out

education

Is

firearm

to

be carried

for

10

relating

a

1

questi-on

that

you

don't

z

but

you think

that

3

based

4

show?

5

A.

Correct.

6

O.

Okay.

that

upon

there

investigations

7

for

B

A.

I

9

0.

Okay.

that

at

Ì^rere originated

at

Nordyke

were these

bel_i-eve so. And what

was the

variety

1l-

A.

I2

facts.

If

13

check,

there

t_ ¿t

of

15

O.

Uh-huh.

16

A.

that

resul-ted

in

L7

but

have

specifíc

knowledge.

1_B

specifically

1.9

O.

20

tel-l-

was observed You know,

that

l_ater

Ird

prefer

my memory serves were

I I l-l

donrt

a few

cal-l- the

l-o.ok j-nto I'm

me if

made

gun show?

the

that

I

the

investigatj_ons,

l_0

what

event,

r^rere some arrests

conducted

Vüere these

. things

remember a particul_ar

going

t.his

to

helps

l-ed to

I

incidents

Nordyke

an arrest?

didn't

the

specifícally

arising

from

some

shows

criminal

before

describe you

activity

real_l_y getting me,

that

of

prosecutions, I

didntt

comíng

and you can

a scenario

remember

what

here.

happened.

This was somebody who was at a gun show as a

Z I

22

vendor or perhaps a patron

z5

agent observed some activitv

24

i-nvestJ-gation

25

A.

that

and perhaps an undercover

eventualfy

and then that fed to

led

an arresr.

Yes.

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

to

an

1

O.

z

investigatj-on

3

never have taken

4

^

Correct.

6

O.

So in

6

show and the

1

what

helped

or

aided

B

that

crimei

is

that

9

A

Okay.

So it's

and that place

that

highly law if

of

there

the

at

l_aw enforcement

the in

of

the

gun

gun show is

prosecuting

correct?

Correct. MR. KILMER:

Thank you.

11

MR. MacKAY:

Thank you.

1,2

THE WTTNESS:

Nothing

further.

Thank you.

(Whereupon the deposition

c o n c l _ u d e da t

74 15 I6

may

a gun show?

presence

agent

that

activity

wasn't

the

10

13

that

enforcement

instance

presence

likely

--oOo--

I1 1B 1_9 20 2L 22 ¿J

¿4

25

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

1O:15 a.m.)

1

Pursuant

to

Sectj-on

Z

Civil

3

certify

4

made those

changes

5

necessary,

and approve

6

^^v5^^1U V I I g U L .

I

Procedure

of

that.

have

I

Dated this

the

State

read

(q)

2025 of

(1)

and correcti-ons

that

f

of

B 9 t_0

I

hereby

transcript,

same as nor^/ true

day

Code of

the

California,

my deposition

the

of

RANDY C. ROSSI

1 n a 1

1_2 13 I4

15 76 L7 1B I9 20 2L 22 23 24 25

EsquireDepositionServrces 800.770.3363

deem and

, 2006.

1

REPORTER' S CERTTFTCÀTE

2 3

f

cerËify

thaË

the

r,¡itness

in

the

foregoíngr

deposítion,

4 5

was by

ne

6

eause;

that

shtorn to

said

place

I

uas report'ed

by me,

9

of the

of

tl.erein

sËate

oaths

L1

thereafËer

L? L4 1-5

named.; Ëhat

car-ifornia

attorney

further

fcr

deposition'

nor

the causê

naned in

16

Ín

rN Ìr-rrN'ss 54

dalz of

into

certify

eit,her

in

or

the

was taken the

certif

ied

authorized

that

any of

24 25

Reporter

administer was

au not

the

partåes in

of to the

counsel

nor

said. outcome of

deposition. 'ereunto

2006.

20

23

and

said. r¡itness

shorthand.

r

19

22

of

tine

typer-riting.

18

2L

the

t'estinony

T{rrEREoF, r have

APAtc

at

to

any way inËerested. said

within-entitred

testimony

and said

transcribed. r

this

a duly

and. affirmatÍoni

L2

testify

deposit,ion

7

l-o

L7

dury

LAT'RTE State of

D California

set

ny hand

CHANGES/CORREC'IIONS Pagell,tue

"

t'rom

To

. l

IVÍÉnessStgmatune

Ðate

45 -

approved20:735:14 Box3:23 changes 43:4 approximately 9:6 break33:20 check10:24ll:2212:4 ablel8:23 38:12,15 APRIL44:22 broad11:10 1 2 : 1 2 1 3 : 5 ,1281: 2 2 A8295 L7:l area 10:12 building 16:1 2 3 : 6 2 7 : 1375 : 1 2 7:21 acceptable arising 41 : l3 buildings 2I:23 37:8 3 8:14 0l:13 accompaniment20:2L arrest41:10,24 Bureau9:4 checked 20:15 l¡ct16:24L7:14,25 arrests38:7,164l:2 business 13:15,18 l5:3 checks12:626:4 acting33:12 asked7:1,137:6,20,23 bay 12:2326:129:19 Chiel9:4,14 activities9:3 38:2039:7 buyingl3:15 city 8:2115:1522:l activity 34:6,94l:9,23 asking 12:20 37:8 42:2 aspects 40:2 Civil43:2 actors33:1034:2 31:24 C l : 5 , 1 82 : l 3 : 1 95 : 8 clandestine l0:13 39:14 associated actual3S:21,25 attzched20:L7 29:l43:1044:8 classification18:13 39:25 attempt3l:13 Cal9:20 l4:5 classifications ADAMS l:7 attempting 3 1:7 California l:2,19 2:3 classify 30:20 addition17:10l8:3 attendl7:7 20:20 3:7,20,24 5:4,7,19 clear7:3 adheredl6:6 attended 22:19,22 6:219:25 l0:211:24 cleared 20:15 administer29:11 attendees 19:19 ll:25 l2:7,10,15 clientsl9:9,12 admires12:22 attention2T:24 13:8,16,22 14:15,17 Code16:1617:22,23 admonition36:25 attorney 3:22 5:21 15;2,9,23 6:3 16:13,20 27:9,2428:21,25 3 8 :l 3 6:14,219:14,16 17:22 l8:5 22:20 34:1735:636:9 adoptT:16 audit26:14 23:1,10,16,20 24:7 38:2039:2343:l advance34:3 authority 16:1527:8 24:10,14,17,21 25:17 Codes17:22 alfidavits29:14 automatic14:21 25:21,2126:7,23 collect29:1436:14 afford 25:11 available24:9 29:10,18 31:14,17 collection14:1226:9 age20:2026:8 35:9 Avenue3:6 32:1233:1634:5,9 collectors14:7 agent9:1 26:64l..23 aware 12:16 14:6 22:10 34:17 37:18 43:2 college9:20 42:6 22:18 25:16 38:5,6 44:1,7 c o m el 1 : 1 4 agents26:14 a.m2:4,45:242:13 California94612 3:16 comfortable7:9 agreeT:13 call24:24l:14 coming23:16 4l:18 agreement7:18 called5:9 13:25t5:7 command9:20 ahead5:2317:2033:14 B l:5 9:1828:25 40:13 commencementl9:25 aided42:7 back 8:11 23:16 25:17 calls24:4,24 commencing5:2 Alamedal:I2,L23:L2 29:9 34:14 36:l caption44:20 commerce24:22 4 : 1 55 : 1 76 : 1 3 0 : 7 38:1939:21 carried I2:5 20:1440:4 commonII:20 23:5 36:23 bacþround 10:24 carries19:14 compare3l:17 Alison3:2I6:2 Il:22 12:4,6,12 l3:5 carry 18:6,23 completed40:9,16,17 Allen l:4 5:16 13:2123:626:3 carrying 20:6 4 0 : 18 Allison7:l bad 8:5 CARSON l:1 1 compliance l9:7,9 allows7:25 BAKER l:7 case 1:5 5:16 8:15 2 l : 1 8 2 2 : 82 9 : 1 0 amended30:8 BALTES 1:6 1I:1424:1836:22 complied26:l9 ammunition20:15 based41:3 44:19 comply15:2117:13 amount28:l6 beginning 2:4 27:25 cause24:21 44'.ll l8:4 25:19,2129:5 AltN 1:4 behalf 2:1 centralized 13:21 36:9 announcementS:12 believe13:2,3l4:ll l 5 : 1 1 , 1l86 : 7 complying19:1221:15 9:7 28:5 certain39:9 26:15 answer23:2224:225:2 22:627:20,25 28:2529:183l:3 certainly24:l3 compound33:21 25:5,10 37:138:14 01:8 certificate9:21,24 compromise23:18 antique30:20 benefit ll:22l7:823:6 14:25L5:7,10,L7,23 3 8 : 3 1 30:12 antiques best24:225:9 15:25 17:12 l8:7,8 computer 28:l6 anyway7:t9 better 33:9 37:4 1 8 l : 0 computer-assisted appear30:I 1,14 Certified2:6 5:5 44:5 44:15 APPEARANCES3:I b i t 1 1 : 1 1 BLAIR 1:6 44:14,24 concept11:14,15 appeared5:7 B o a r dl : 1 2 1 3 : 2 3 certify 18:1543:344:7 concerning 32:10 appears24:6 1 5 : 2 1 1 7 : l l 3 l : 5 , 1 1 44:17 concluded 27:542:13 applied16:18 32:l cetera9:12 ll:2 28:17 conductl3:8,10 apply35;10 Bob l:7 CIIAN l:11 conducted20:234l:3 appointed16:19 bought23:15 changeT:17 conducting12:25 approve43:5

EsquireDepositionServ¡ces 800.770.3363

connection34:2237:25 37:2538:9 contactl9:20 contracts20:l2 control23:l3 controls3l:15,23,23 convenient25:12 converse39:6 convey3l:14 32:9 conveyed39:5 Cooney9:14 cooperative22:I 5 copy19:16 correct12:9,13t3:I,14 26:5,L0,|L 15:1,4,5,8 26:2127:l,I,l0 28:2329:20,21,25 33:1834:6,23,24 35:336:1237:22 39:L,240:204l:5 42:4,8,943:6 corrections43:4 3:ll,l4 6:1,3 counsel 7:1,1436:2337:l 38:1344:17 Counsel's6:1 36:24 counterpart14:15 3 l:1 counties countyl:ll,l2 3:11,11 3 : 1 35 : 6 , 167: l , l 2I:22,2322:l30:7 3l:25 32:236:5,23 36:24,2437:844:3,6 44:25 course25:I 8 Court 1:15:18 courtesy7:2 crime10:1421:742:8 criminal9:194l:16 CSR 1:23,23 curio 14:8,12 curios30:12 current 10:9 D l:222:55:530:9 44:5,23 dance36:6 l0:25 dangerous Dated43:7 datesl9:20 DAVIS l:5 day 43:7 44:22 days19:24 dba 1:4 dealer12:4,1113:10 l 5 : 1 9l 6 : 81 8 : 4 , 1 1 20:2326:7,7,22

46 3l:17 10:2016:192L:13 dealerslt:l l5:2l7:9 32:12 20:925:18,2526:15 doing22:16 27:329:9 26:19,25 dollarl8:17 29:ll Donald3'.4,55:21 27:13 dealerships drugs10:14 dealing14:16 DUANE 1:5 decision3l:22 duly 5:1044:9,13 deem43:4 duties2l:1232:ll Defendant3:10 defendantsl:14 36:22 E 3:5 defines30:22 earlier 22:1225:24 defïnitionl7:4 30:10 30:10,15,16 34:1736:2137:1,22 Degree9:18 39:7 easier26:1 delivery40:19 Edition l7:21 27:4,16 demonstrate 29:4 education9:1738:23 39:5 39:24 40:7 demonstrated demonstrating2S:2,L4 educational39:440:14 demonstration2T:21 efforts38:7 28:7 either3T:2544:18 element23:12 DENIIIIS 1:6 department3:206:4,8 eligibility 14:25l5:7 15:11,18,24,25 8:7,I7,25,25 l0:2I 17:12 2l:1432:12 16.,20 18:8,10 employed6:23 35:10,11 depending14:19 employer6:20 enable35:14 deponent3:196:5 l:17 2:1,2 enables deposition 35:l l enforcement9:4,5,10 4:135:3,15,20 6:10 6:188:1542:L343:3 10:14,22,24 16:24 44:18 l7:14,2419:1622:15 23:73l:16 42:2,7 Deputy3:L3,225:25 6:39:L436:23 engagel4:2 36:10 engaged24;22 describe4 l: 19 ensure15:1216:10 description28:1 designer10:14 18:232I:14,1822:8 26:829:15,243l:21 details38:l I differences14:2323:3 32:335:12 different| | :25 14:5,19 ensurins25:2026:22 22:2532:23 29:L0 18:10,13 entertainment32:13 33:535:77 difficult 28:15 32:22 direct2T:24 entitled24:l25:6 entrance2l:5 direction44:15 entrances directly l6:6 19:19 I)irector6:78:8,179:8 ESQ3:5 Esquire2:2 5:3 10:2016:192l:12 essentially39:6 disagree25:7 discharge20:16 establishl9:10 1l: 14 established discuss 9:7 34:1339:20 estimated19:18 discussion display2l:l38:22 et9:12lI:228:17 eve¡rt18:2019:2320.,2 displayed17:7 20:1022:1533:17 distance24:l 38:9,17 4I:l District1:1,25:18,18 Division6:4,88:89:7,8 eventsl8:18

eventually41:24 everyday26:17 exactly8:13 EXAMINATION4:1 5:1436:1940:24 examined 5:10 example8:1912:17,20 25:2430:1938:18 39:I3 exception12:14,16 30:1236:5 Exhibit 5:1330:235:23 EXHIBITS4:10 exitsl9:19 exotic33:8 expectl7:16 experience 9:2,10 expertl0:10,I7 12:20 14:1037:2 expertise 8:1610:12 explosivel0:25 express32:I extra 15:22 eyes27:22 ß 36.'2 facilities2l:2237:13 facility 19:1520:l 2l:7 faú24:16,19,2126:6 facß41:12 fair2l:23 35:2137:8 40:10 familiarlL:4,1517:2 18:1622:2 familiarity 9: I I far 12:23l3:5 22:13,14 22:1823:L224:12 27:20 fashion25:l3 features2T:21 federal1l:.413:19,25 I4:1,2,4,11 15:16,20 23:ll29:19 federally12:3 leelT:258:1639:12 felonl3:2 F'FLl4:4 l7:10 FFL's 14:5 field26:6,13 fifteen19:24 fine24:l34:ll fingerprints 26:25 finish33:14 fïrearm 10:.23,23,24 ll:1,1,4,21l2:1,3 l 5 : 1 6l 6 : 8 1 7 : 9 2 0 : 7 20:17,18,22 24:17

26:2327:16,19 28:15 33:1434:1239:18 g o i n g S : 1l42 : I 7 1 7 : 1 6 30:10,1 I,213l:17 17:17,20,23 19:4,8 35:1940:3 19:2220:627:22,23 firearms6:3,88:8,17 30:l4l:L9 9:6,8,11l0:15,I7,20 good17:436:20 l4:1,3,I7 13:16,19 21:1 14,,2015:3,2016:19 government 17:718:22,2420:14 grandparent20:21 graphics28:16 20:242l:6,1324:8 Great29:337:5 24:2325:12,15,15 ground6:12 26:927:430:15 32:12,13,22 33:6,23 guardian20;22 guess14:1419:18 34:2135:7,13,14 26:1334:18 36:ll,l5 37:2 g u nl 1 : 1 0 , 1 1 52:10,14 first2:3 5:4,9 12:2216:13,23 17:5 Five8:21 17:12,13,24 18:4,7,8 frxed16:2 20:3,12 19:2,5,25 flintlock 30:20 22:19,22 2I:4,14,20 Floor2:3 5:4 23:1524:16,2125:Il focusI l:9 13:24 25:17,2I,25 26:7 followed16:1139:25 27:6,1328:729:6,11 follow-up36:2537:21 29:15,19,22 3l'.15,24 38:339:3 40:22 32:3,10,23 35:18 force30:8 3 7 : 6 , 1328 : 1 , 1 8 , 2 1 Foreign37:14 38:2539:6,1440:1,3 form7:5,11 40.'54l:7,2142:3,5,6 forth 5:1I guns14:22,22l5:8 found24:18 23:1426:128.,2 foar 33:2036:3 29:1534:l36:5 FOURNIER l:7 Franchise13:2315:16 39''24 GIIY l:5 1 5 : 2 11 7 : l I lreeS:2 FridayI:202:55:l HAGGERTY1:11 front 3 1:18 hall37:14 fuIJ27:20 hznd 14:2227:628:2 fully 12:416:8l8:23 29:ll 39:2440:3,5 3I.'22,23 44:22 furtherZ4:1 36:18 handling27:4,1628:2 40:2442:1044:17 28:14 hands40:6,13 happened41:20 GAIL t:10 general3:22 hate23:12 6:39:L4 head32:11 9:16lO:1314:13 17:619:l2I:8 25:18 held37:12 helped42:7 40:3 generallyl3:1,5l4:ll helps4l:20 hereinafter5:11 14:1818:622:l hereunto44:21 28:1435:9,11 highest9:24 General's6:21 getting29:9 4I:lI highly 33:942:l give17:2525:935:4 hip 8:5 Hired 8:25 38:1639:12 giving3l:19 32:6 hobby36:15 go 5:238:l I 12:lI hold 16:13l7:12 13:1017:2023:20,23 holding8:1035:18 24:12,2225:1426:14 home29:16

EsquireDeposition Services 800.770.3363

47 h o s t1 6 : 1 2l 8 : 1 8 hosting19:2 hour 5:2 hypothetical12:18 24:24 I identification20:17 2l:l illegal23:I0 24:17 illegally 22:16 immediate9:1320:25 important19:3,10 25.'20 impose2T:22 imposed16:3,4 incidents4l:13 include26:22 includes12:11 including37:7 40:9 lncomplete24:24 IllDEX4:1,10 indicatingT:2 individuals 18:2120:6 information38:16 informed3I:22,23 informing20:3 initially 11:13 insert27:I 8 inspect26:14 inspected2l:18 inspection16:1026:ll instance14:2126:14 29:2232:16 27:5,17 42:5 instances38:6 insurance16:2 insuring20:8 intact29:24 intend18:18,21 interested44:19 interrogated5:10 interrupt 7:25 l0:l 33:14 introduce5:24 investigation38:14 4l:2442:2 investigations23:.19 26:124l:3,6 investigative38:7 involved9:2 involvement 31:l5 involves20:8 issued 6:182l:l items23:10 I.D26:8 J

J 3:5 JEA]\ I:6 JESS1:5 job 1:238:129:733:il Jose3:78:22 JR 3:5 judge8:1525:9 jump 14:14 justice3:206:4,88:7 8:18,25 9:1910:21 16:2021:1432:13 35:10,12 keepl0:9 KEITH 1:11 kickS:216:9 Kilmer3:4,54:4 5:14 5:216:5,97:8,18,22 8:6 13:13L9:324:l 2 4 : l l 2 5 : L , 82 8 : 1 0 32:533:4,16,22 34:12,14 36:1,18 40:2442:10 King l:10 5:16 know6:128:1612:23 12:2417:16,18 21:21 22:1423:14,17 28:12 28:1630:33I:I37:4 4l:ll knowledgell:10 4l:17 known 13:2 knows19:10 L 3:13 Iab l0:13 label40:6 lack3l:23 33:9 Lauriel:222:55:5 44''5,23 law 3:4 9:3,5,910:24 12:2113:25l4:ll,l5 16:417:21 19:16 22:1523:7,L0,11 25:1929:18,19 30:15 30:1934:2142:2,7 lawfully L8:526:23 36:10 laws9:11 ll:5 25:22 2 6 : 1 92 9 : 1 03 2 : 1 0 Iawsuit7:2030:6 led4l:10,23,24 LEE l:6 legal20:21 legally 13:12,13,14 Iegislaturel6:24 legitimate24:20

lend34:1 m e a n8 : 1 11 0 : l1 1 : 1 8 o Lerda l:222:5 5:5 44:5 2 6 : 1 32 7 : 1 1 3 0 : 1 9 O3:23 44:23 33:14 Oak3:15 Let's27:22 meaning38:l2 Oakland3:16 level9:2410:6l8:12 means25:12 object25:8 Lexis-Nexis17:22 meant2T:\328:13 objection7:5,11,12,24 liability l8:17 meetl5:1320:8 24:432:4,2533:13 Iicensel3:I9,20 L4:1,8 member20:19 33:19 l 4 : 8 , 1 6 , 1l 85 : 8 , 1 5 Memorial3T:14 objections7:4,7,14 15:17,20 memory33:3 34:10 obliterated29:20 licensed12:3,1113:10 4l:12 observed4I:I0,23 l6:8 l7:8 l8:5,23 mention37:11 occur1l:21,23l2:2 20:2325:25 mentioned13:2515:.6 37:18 licenses14:2,4,24 20:525:2437:1,7 occurred38:17 licensing16:12 Merrilees3:216:2,2 office3:I I 6:1,2236:24 Lincoln 3:6 7:108:4 18:2523:22 officer8:1I,20,219:23 line33:534:3 33:l 2l:2,3 l i s tl 3 : 2 11 5 : 1 1 , 1186 : 7 met39:14,25 officersl0:319.'21 Iisting 18:18,2120:6 MIKE l:7 offices3:4 5:3 l i t t l e1 l : 1 1 2 8 : 4 million18:17 offload25:14 live23.'20 minute33:1 Off-the-record39:20 l o a n e d 3 3 : 1315 : 1 5 minutes27:25 okay5:15,246:14,17 Ioaning35:7,1936:l0 misstate3T:22 7:178:9,21,23 9:15 Iocal13:1915:2216:3 mÍsstates 28:9 9:17Il:12l2:10,L7 16:4l7:ll MJJ l:5 1 4 : 2 4 1 6 : 1 , 1 75 : 1 0 locales37:12 morning36:20 l 8 : 1 , 61 9 : 1 2 31:10 location 16:221:5 motion32:1833:6,10 2l:2422:223:18 locationsl9:20 33:22,23 34:2235:8 25:6,16,24 27:15 long6:23 14:2228:23 35:15,20 36:6,I1 28:3,1829:1,3,8 30:4 look30:135:23,2436:2motivation24:8 30:5,233l:4 32:8,11 3 9 : 1 41 1 : 1 8 32:2133:2234:8,11 looking9:9 36:1737:4,1639:ll loopholell:16,20 N l:5 39:1740:214l:6,9 lot2l:6-7 name5:25l5:8 36:2I 42:l named44:12,20 once15:10,17 16:8 M narcotics9:1 10:13 3 5 :l 3 MacKAY 3:134:5 5:24 narro\r Il:913..24 ones22:2529:2 6:257:9,13,21,23 narrower30:16 ongoing38:14 13:1224:4,2425:7 necessarily16:ó40:17 oOo4:75:1242:16 28:932:4,2533:13 necessâry 8:l 32:3 openlT:23 33:1936:1939:19,21 38:2243:5 operating25.'253I:18 40:2242:ll needT:634:1838:25 -Nevada12:19,212I-- glr_nro¡32:136ß)3 magazine2T:18 order13:15,18 17:12 mal
EsquireDepositionServices 800.770,3363

48 P 3:23 | 6:18 PAGE4:12 I plan 19:15,16,23 paperwork26:9 nlease9:2128:10 paraphernalia23:9 I plusr):r / I 24:9 I nolicy18:17 parent20:21 I Poly 9:20 parking2l:6,7 I portions40:13 part 11:313:4,2219:23 I position8:10,17 20:142l:1223:7 I positions9:5 2 5 : 2 02 9 : 1 03 2 : 1 1 I possess 35:14 3 3 : 1I possessing 20:2435:13 I participants33:1034:2 I possession 20:25,25 participate20:10 :::a 34:21 36:5 | particular 7:244l:l | 38:2540:l parties l3:8 20:23 lpossibte27:L528:6,6 2 5 : l l 2 6 : 14 4 : 1 8 29:4 party7:19l2:l23:5 post9:21,222l:4 pass3l:7 posting20:13 passed16:2430:63l:2 prefer4l:ll patron4l:22 premise20:24 peace8:11,20,219:23 premises 20:15 10:219:212l:3 presence 42:5,6 Penat16:1617:22,23 present6:2027:19 27:8,2428:21,25 28:829:6,2339:15 34:1735:636:9 pretty26:1833:7 preventT:23 38:2039:23 pending5:17 prevents12:242O:16 people12:19,2118:22 previously30:2 23:20,2324:2125:14 print2T:l 25:19,2127:6 prior 19:2520:L perform 28:6 private l2:l l3:8 20:22 period I2:7,1240:9 2l:2523:525:ll periodicallyl0:5 26:15 26:137:9,11,13 periods26:3 privilege38:14 permit 14:2,21,22 probablyl7:19 33:2 35:10,19 Procedure43:2 permits14:19 procedures9:ll 28:l permitteesl1:l proceeding44:I 1 person12:2218:6 process16:1040:14 19:21 processes 10:25 personally5:72l:17 producer 19:1420.,2 22:6 36:14 20:142l:4 personnel19:222l:13 producers20:1I 22:723:8 production32:19 persons20:24 34:2335:15,16,20 person's 12:2229:16 36:7,12 photo21:l productions33:7,24 physical 38:21,25 35:8 prohibited35:13 39:14 picture32:7833:6,10 prohibitionsl3:3,6 33:2234:2235:8,16 promoterl8:8,20 35:2036:6,I1 22:1338:1,5 pictures33:23 promoters19:5 place17:626:1842:3 prompted38:2 44:12 prop34:4 proper26:8,8,9 Plaintiff 3:3 Plaintiffs l:8 2:2 properly25:25 plaintiffs 5:13,20,22 property 22:l 36:6

37:8 props32:18 prosecuting42:7 prosecutions 41:16 prospective20:3 provide 18:1720:5 provides18:2119:1 provision39:9,12 provisions18:1638:24 39:4,13,23 public17:620:20 purchaseLZ:l 25:15 purchasersll:l 29:14 purchases ll:21 l2:I0 purport3T:2 purports36:4 purpose3l:19 32:9 35:17 purposes 32:L4,22 pursuant6:1743:I put 6:259:82l:9,11 26:6

2l:ll 34:12,13,14 35:24,25 36:139:18 39:21 recount31:l0 reduction24:20 refer 37:2I 39:8 referred34:17 referring 28:13,19,21 29:237:10,17 refers11:19 refine34:l9 refresh 33:334:10 refreshed34:25 refreshing34:l5 regarding32:22,23 34:1639:24 registered13:2315:21 regulate32:1334:9 regulated24:1333:9 regulates3I:74 33:17 34:5 regulating34:2I regulationsll:7 32:10 32:21,2334:2035:5 qualifications8:9 l0:8 regulatory L0:223l:16 qualifier l0:8 relatel0:23 question7:1225:2,3,5 related16:6 28:5,2032:533:4,5 relates35:7 34:16,1837:3,20,22 relating l9:I4 40:2 39:3,224l:l relevancy7:4 questions 7:419:8 relic l4:8,12 33:2036:18,2537:6 relics30:12 40:23 remember 31:44l:1,20 REMEMBERED 5:1 R remove27:18 radical23:12 repair 14:-12 R a n d yI : 1 82 : l 3 : 1 9 repeú28:20 34:18 5:86:6,743:1044:8 40:I1 rangel1:10 rephrase25:3 39:22 ranks9:4 reportedl:22 44:13 Ray 5:237:19 Reporter2:6 5:5 44:6 Raymond3:135:25 44:14,24 36:21 represent36:22 read 8:14l9:428:l request2l:2 43:3 require23:24 readily21:5 requiredI0:413:9,20 reading35:l 1 5 : 1 51 9 : 5 , 6 , 1 1 readyl8:2 20:1327:328:7 really 14:1415:12 requirement15:16 4 l : lI 16:1220:13,19 reasonable 24:19 requirements 13:17 recall8:1332:6 15:13,1416:I,9 recite18:2 1 7 : I 7 , 1 8 1 8l:93: l recited22:ll 19:1420:4,9 2l:8 reciting19:2 22:ll,l3 29:2,535:l recollection34:16,25 35:1838:2340:7 recommendation32:6 requires15:23 record5:216:257:3 reserved7:5,14

EsquireDeposition Seryices 800.770.3363

respect10:17 response 40:25 responsibilities l0: 19 10:23ll:3 responsibilityl3:4 16:520:726:18 responsible 20:2 restate28:10 result38:7 resulted4l:16 review30:9 reviewed35:6 revolutionary30:20 revolver27:6 right 8:6 l0;7,16,19 ll:9l3:7 l8:1430:8 ROGER 1:7 Rossi1:182:l3:195:8 6 : 6 , 7 , 180: 6 1 9 : 6 39:2243:10 36:14,20 44:8 rules6:1215:22l9:l 2l:1532:940:3 Russ22:2 Russelll:4 5:16 R.L l:6 Sacramento l:19 2:3 3:245:4,69:1844:3 44:6,25 28:2,14 safe27:4,16 29:1140:2 safes29:15 safety10:2427:2132:3 38:2339:3,940:3,4 sale40:18 sales32:l0 Salliel:4 22:2 San3:7 8:223I:5 32:2 satisfied39:14 saying7:l0 says12:2235:9 scenario4l:19 SCOTT1:11 scrutiny18:12 second13:24I8:9 section17:2427:24 28:2235:636:9 39:1043:l sections 38:21 secure24:8 20:16 secured security16:217:25 19:15,22,23 2l:2 23:8 see28:2239:8 seen30:23

49 sell 14,,21l5:8 25:12 Standards9:23 26:129:19 standpoint3l:16,16 seller13:3,4 started6:9 selling13:1614:20 state3:205:66:219:18 15:3 9:24l0:2ll:4,21 send2l:13 12:3,19,21 I3:7,22 sent22:7 14:1522:2025:14 separately30:22 30:15,19 3l:14 33:16 serial29:20,24 34:5,837:1843:2 serves4l:12 44;1,6 Services2:2 5:3 stated40:25 set5:1134:2044:21 statement35:2140:L0 setting3 1:18 statesl:1 5:17ll:20,24 Shorthand2:6 5:5 44:5 lI:25 22:22 44:14,24 stating2l :6 show11:1516:13,23 statutel7:2 28:7,24 l7:5,13,13,20,24 35:2 18:4,7,819:2,5,17,25statutoryl7:2L 34:20 20:3,12 2l:4 27:5 STEELE1:10 32:1035:1837:6 Steve9:14 38:18,224l:4,7,21 stipulate7:3 18:25 42:3,6,6 stipulated7:8,22 showing30:5 stipulation7:16 shown39:5 stop18:9 showsl:5 ll:1012:14 storage40:3 19:202I:14,18,20 store3l:18 22:5,7,17,19,22 story34:3 23:15,2124:6,8,12 Street2:3 3:155:4 24:14,t6,21 25:ll,l3 strike25:16 27:133l:15,2432:24 studios33:8,23 34:237:1238:l subject30:6 4l:14 submitted t9:I6,17,24 signed20:13 subsection 29:l,l30:9 similar3l:2 35:18,22 35:2436:2,3 sir l0:1840:23 subsections 28:23 small2T:23 subsequent 26:l2 sold23:1526:23 substance 31:10,13 13:2 somebody9:9 Suite3:6,15 l 4 : 2 l 7 : 1 32 2 : 1 6 supervisor9:l3 27:1536:84l:21 Supervisors l:13 31:5 somewhat30:7634:19 3l:ll32:2 sorryl0:1 2l:928:12 sure19:626:15,19 33:13 39:16,19 source24:16 sustain25:9 13:1,5 25:18 SWAT9:1,2 speaking 35:9,11 sworn5:1044:9 special8:9,249:1 synopsis3l:12 35:4 specific2S:21 38:11 systems 35:12 4l:17 specifically28:19 4I:I2,18 table8:3 speculate 25:5,13 Tactics8:24 speculation23:2524:2 tag20:17 . 24:5,25 take16:1626:17,25 speed7:15 27:2530:l33:l ss 44:2 35:2336:2 sfaff26:ll taken2:t6:1042:3 standard17:21l8:4 44:71

TASIANA 1:5 Tax 13:2315:16,21 17:ll team9:2 telephone19:21 television32:1933:24 34:2235:16,2036:6 36:ll tell S:199:2223:3 38:15 4l:20 tends23:I I t e r ml l : 1 8 1 5 : 6 testifiedl0:10,16 testify44:9 testifying6:173l:4 testimonyl9:428:9,71 3l:11,13,20 37:23 44:13 testing39:9 tests29:11 Thank l3:7 18:14 2l:17 29:837:5 39:1740:2342:l0,ll 42:12 theatrical35:8,16 36:7 theorwe24:20 thereof5:2 thingl1:13 things7:1516:104l:7 thinkT:1819:3,10,17 1 9 : 1 8 , 1297 : l 3 7 : 2 3 38.,24l.,2 thinking 7:15 l4:7 thought23:13 33:14 three15:13 threshold14:24 thumb27:1 time40:8,18,18 44:12 timesl9:20 title 8:7 today6:5,157:7,12 TODD 1:6 TRÄDE 1:5 trafficking24:17 training 9:23 10:4,9 transact18:22 transaction12:25l3:9 l3:ll26:10 27:1,5 29:2340:8 transactions14:3 18:2420:723:5 26:1733:17 transcribed44:15 transcript43:3 transcription44:16 transferl2:225:12 transferred17:8 transfers l2:2 20:22

2l:6 trial 7:11 true43:5 truth 44:9,10,10 try24:2225:2,33l:21 33:537:4 trying 7:15 TS 1:4 Twenty-five6:24 two 12:19,21 type27:23 typesT:614:20 typical14:2237:7 typically1l:19

w

waitingI2:7,1226:3 40:9 waive7:l I want5:23ll:9L3:24 2 l : l l 2 3 : 1 82 4 : 3 , 1 1 3 3 : l3 8 : 1 3 wanted7:24l3:814:14 37:10 war 30:2037:14 wasn't 16:2442:3 way 9:332:739:23 44:19 \üeapon10:2514:21,22 weâpons 8:2423:9 33:8,11 Uh-huh6:19L6:22 WERTYSCIfYN l:6 24:1126:2,16,24 We'll34:12 27:229:13,17 3l:9 We're 34:1436:139:21 3l:19 32:1540:15 WIIEREOF44:21 4l:15 wide 9:4 umbrellal5:12 willing 7:2,14,16 undercover4 l:22 WILMA l:11 understand25:1,437:3 wish8:12 understanding14:13 withdraw 33:4 understandsl9:5 within-entitled 44:lI Unitedl:l5:17 witness5:96:7 8:2 University9:19 23:2424:633:2 unloaded2T:17 34:1539:1842:12 unregulated23:21 44:13,21 24:13 word 33:9 unsure28:4 work27:6 update10:4 worked9:3 use12:1833:2334:21 working l7:4 35:739:2440:4 worry 8:4 usual2l:20 wouldn't 28:5 Usuallv34:4 written20:12 Y V 1 : 1 05 : 1 6 Y 3:21 vague32:4,5,25 Yeah33:2 variety 9:4 41:9 year16'.20,23 l8:19 various14:10 years6:248:21 vendor 4l:22 vendors19:1820:3,I2 0 venue17:7 043891:5 Yenues 2l:20,2527:7 2 7 : l L3 7 : 7 , 7 , 9 , 1 1 version30:8 143:l versus5:1614:22 10:152:442:13 Veterans37:14 ll,l3:6 video33:7 36:6 1207127:2428:22,25 violations22:1037:24 38:2039:4,8 38:2,4,5 l207l.l 18:16 VIRGIL t:7 12071.417:24 l9:l visible21:5 20:421:8 vs 1:9 1208135:636:9 12213:15

EsquireDeposition Seruices 800.770.3363

12613:6 1604873:23 17 l:202:55:l 1820:20 18012:35:3 199930:7 20009:616:21 2:55:l 17:21 20061:20 43:744:22 202543:l 2135:9 263-08023:25 272-67343:17 364:5 3649l:232:6 44:24 404:4 4083:8 4503:15 5 4:4,15 Sth44:22 5103:17 6808941:23 828:2529:l 9:092:45:2 9163:25 3:7 95125-3030 3:24 95816-0487 99 l:5 3:8 998-8489

EsquireDepositionSeryices 800.770.3363

)

\\ _',/

,1r

ORDINANCE NO. AN ORDINANCE AMENDING SECTIONg.12.120OF CODE THECOUNTYORDINANCE PROHIBITING THE PO9SESSION OF FIREARTIJIS ON COUNty PROPERTY

rHE orr'åålÏ,i3ir"ålTãfi3ir-oreuueor BoARD seöno¡¡ | ¡ . _ . !

I

That theOrdinance 9gd" of the Counþ of Alamedashallbe amendedby rèvisingSection 9.12.'l2O to readas follows: g-Iz,1zoPossession of Firearmson county propertyprohlblted (a)

Flndlngs.The Boardof Supervisors findsthatgunshotfatalitiesand inJuries are of epidemicproportions in AlamedaCounty.Duringthefirstfiveyearsotifre lggo's 8Zg hbmicides werê'committed usingfireàrms,and an additionall,eql victimswere hospitali4e{.wlth_gunshot injuries. Firearmsarethe leadingcauseof deathamong young'people Ue!"çlllte agesof 15 and24 InAtameda Cbunty.BetweenJuty1; 1996 and June30, 1997,l36juvenileswerearrestedin Oaklandfor gun-related offeñses.On July4, 1998a shootingIncidentonthe AlamedaCountyFairgrounds resuftedín several gunshotwounds,otherinjuriesand panicsmongfairgóers. Þroh[bitíngthe possession of firearmson Countyproperlywíllpromotethe publichealthand safetyby contributing to thereductionofgunshotfata|itiesandinjuriesintheCounty.

(b)

Misdemeanor.Everypersonwho bríngsontoor possesses on Countypropertya .. firearm,loaded'orunloaded,or ammunitíon for a firearmis gulltyof a misdemeanor.

'(c)

.CountyProperty.As usedin thissectlon,the termCountypropertymeansreat'. . . property,includingany buildingsthereon,ownedor.leasedÞy.ne Countyof Alameda '.. '(hereinafter "County'),and in the County'spossession, or in ih.epossesi¡onof.apublíc or privateentity undercontractwiththe Countyto performa pubiicpurpose,includingbut notlímitedto realpropertyownedor leasedby theiCor.lnty in the unlncorporated anú portionsof the County,suchas the Countyparkin SunolandtheAlameda incôrporated ' Cglnty Fairgrounds In the.Cityof Pleasanton, but doesnot includeany "local.public bulldlng" as definedin PenalCodeSectlon171b(c),wherethe Stateregulates . possession of firearmspursuantto penalCodeSectlon111b. (d) Firearm.uFirearmn is any gun,pistol,revolver,rifleor any.device, designedor modified to be usedâs e weapon,fromwhichis expelledthrougha barrel?rprojectileby theforce or otherformof combustion.'Flrearm:doesnot ¡näuáe.¡m¡tation . . ' of àn explosion firearmeor BBgunsand air rifles'asdefinedín Goverriment CodeSectíon53071.5. (e)

Ammqnition."Ammunitlon'ls anyammunition as definedin PenalCodeSeðtlon 12316(b]i{2l.

(f)

Exceptlons.Subsection 9.12.12O(b) doesnot applyto the'foilowíng: (1) A p€aceofficeras definedin Title3, Part2, Chapter4.5 of the California

'

penatCode(sections 930et seg.); (2) a guardor mess€ngéíór a financial institution. a guardof a contract canier operating an armored vehicje, ã.¡¡""nsuäãr¡äte i¡vestigator]patrof operator, or alàrm company operator, or uniiorm'âd:"it;{yil;d as.these occupations are defined in Penal'code sectlon12031(d) a¡d whoñ"iJ.; var¡¿ cert¡R-ca-tã'¡ãäued by the Department of consumer AffairsunderÞånál C"äã*ãärr 1203g, *r,¡iãã"t""rfyemproyed engaged in protecting andpreserving prrp.rtyor nr"wùrri^ln"ràp, of his and or her "to'"lË-lÏqî:91 hotdins u.";r;*r" a rirearm issuedpursuan*openal Codesectioni2050; " "o,o

i ' '

t.r""¡,¡iÍl;l:3,"dï;:iî.i3"ii,".",îî,3ä,"JHTïliî1ir'' #,:rili i,1"ï3;¡,:ffiíi usesthefirearmaspartof tha-t pro¿uði¡ãnìlìvunt, proui'oãJ Û,ut*n"n suchfirearmis. notIn theactualposses'sion .

orirre.uittò¡=ø particlþant, iti" to prevent unauthorized use. ""àureo (5) A personlawfutly transporting ì-r ---"-v fireaims .rvq' or ammunítion in a rirotorvehicle on

County roads;

A personlawfullyusingthe targetrangeoperated by the Atamedacouniy sheriff;(6) criminarinvestígator or rawenforcement Q A fed'erat offÌcar;or (8) A memberof the mílitaryioiõ"ro'rï" state of catifornia or of the uníted stateswhireengagedin the perform.ù;f hË or her duty. ' (g) ' severab¡l¡ty']f any provísionof thissectionorrhe apptication.thereof to any personor circumstance is heldinvalid,suchinvalíoity sÀàrr not affect any otherprovisionor ' application of thissectionwhich ¡J ãìíenLnu"t *¡t'*it¡,äî""àru provisionor ' applicatíon, "an andto this endthe prouisãni oÏirtj. section r"uãnole. "re .SECT|ON tr . . Thisordinanceshafltakeeffectand be in forceth¡rty(3O) daysftom and aftei the dateof passaseandbefoierheexBirarion of fifte.en o.v" áäeiiií üGg; ¡tlnäif" pubtishedonce.with thenamesofth.emembersvotingfor-andagainstt¡",.'"inthe|nter-CityExpiess,a . newspaper published in the Cciuntyof Alamäða. {dopled bv the Bol^d^ojguq:.i.ql:-?llh-" goynty'of'Afameda,state or catifomia,on the2l"r day of September; lggg, by'thefollowingcaliø uJte-:' . AYES:

WILMACHAÑ President of the Boardof Supervisors

County of Afameda, State of Callfornja

ATTEST:CRYSTALK. HISHIDA,CIeTk of the Boardof Sup'ervisors, Countyof Alameda Approved oß ro Form By