Deposition Of Ignatius Chinn

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT F O R T H E N O R T H E R ND I S T R ] C T O F C A L ] F O R N I A

RUSSELL ALLEN NORDYKE and SALLIE ANN NORDYKE, dba TS TRADE SHOI/üS,JESS B. GUY, DUANE N. DAVIS, TASTANA VüERTYSCHYN,JEAN LEE, TODD BALTES, DENNIS BLAIR, R.L. (Bob) ADAMS, ROGER BAKER, MIKE FOURNIER and VIRGIL McVICKER, Plaintiffs,

CaseNo.: C 99 04389 MJJ

Ç f fR i T ¡F I H Þ

ffiffipY

\7q

MARY V. KING, GATL STEH,E, W]LMA CHAN, KEITH CARSON, SCOTT HAGGERTY, the COUNTY OF ALAMEDA, and the COUNTY OF ALAMEDA BOARD OF SUPERVISORS,

¿**

Defendants.

t*,

DEPOSIT]ON OF IGNAT]US H.

CHTNN

sacramento, catlrornia Friday, March 17, 2006

Reported by: Laurie D. Lerda, CSR No. 3649 Job No. 680B98

CSR

-f:, &

ffiffiFV

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

1

Deposition

2

behalf

3

Services,

4

California,

beginning

Ã

11:08

on Friday,

Laurie

7

of

â.fl.,

the

of

Pl-aintiffs

1801 I

D. Lerda,

at

Street,

IGNATIUS H. CHINN, taken Esquire

First

at

1-0:39 a.m.

March Il,

Certified

Floor,

Depositi-on Sacramento, and ending

at

2006 before

Shorthand

Reporter

3649.

B 9 1_0 1 1 a a

L2 13 I4 1_5 IO

11 J_ö

1_9 20 21, 22 z3

24 25

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

No.

on

1

APPEARANCES

2 3

For Plaíntiff:

4

LAVüOFFICES OF DONALDKILMER

5

B Y : D O N A L DE . J . K I L M E R , J R . ,

6

L26L Lincoln

1

San Jose, California

B

(408) 998-8489

Avenue, Suite

ESQ.

l-11

95125-3030

9 10 For

the

Defendant:

11 1,2

o F F r c E o F T H E C O U N T Y C O U N S E L , C O U N T YO F ALAMEDA

13

BY:

I¿T

Counsel

15

1"221 Oak Street,

t6

Oakland,

RAYMONDL.

MacKAY,

Suite

California

Deputy

County

450

9461,2

(sl-0) 272-6134

L1 1B 19

For

the

Deponent

20

State

2t

BY:

22

Ignatius of

H.

Cal-ifornia,

Chinn: Department

of

AL]SON Y. MERRILEES,

Deputy Attorney

Generaf

¿5

P. O. Box 1"60481

24

Sacramento, Cal-ifornia

25

(916) 263-0802

95816-0481

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

Justice

INDEX OF EXAM]NAT]ON

.L

z

3 4 5 6

EXAM]NAT]ON BY

1 B 9

MR. KTLMER

10

.....5,

Mr. McKAY

25

......24

1_1 L2 --oOo--

1_3 I4

15 I6

rNDEX OF EXH]BITS

1"7 l_B L9

PAGE DEPOS]TION

20 2L

EX A

ORDINANCE NO.

22 ¿J

24 25

EsquireDepositionServrces 800.770.3363

1

BE IT

Z

commencing at

3

offices

4

Calj-fornía,

5

Shorthand

6

Sacramento,

R E M E M B E R E D ,t h a t

of

the

hour

1801 I

of

Street,

before

me,

Reporter

in

State

of

March

on Friday, 10:39

a.m.

First

Floor,

L7,

2006|

at

thereof,

the

Sacramento,

LAURIE D. LERDA, a Certified and for

the

California,

County

of

personally

there

appeared

B 9

]GNAT]US H. CH]NN, call-ed

as a witness

10

duly

1 1

as hereinafter

sh/orn,

herein,

was thereupon set

having

examined

and interrogated

--oOo-(Exhibit

?

1,4

A was marked )

EXAMINATTOB NY M R . K I L M E R , E S Q . :

15

O.

1,6

record

7l

A.

1B

C-h-i-n-n.

Would you please identify

Ignatius

19 we get

2I

includinq

the

yourself

Chinn, I-g-n-a-t-i-u-s,

MR. MacKAY:

20

Counsel,

same stipulation objections

as to

before

that form

are

MR. KILMER:

Y e s r v t r êc a n .

23

MR. MacKAY:

Thank vou.

z4

MR. KILMER:

A1l- ¡ì nr-rf-

of

Ignatius

Chinn

pursuant

to

for

the

capital-

we begin/

al-I

22

25

been first

forth.

1"2 '1

who,

can

objections reserved.

rr.¡i a ì 5 deposition

a Notice

of

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

Deposition

1

issued by the plaintiffs. I

Z

3

representing

4

King

5

the

in

Northern

the

United

District

of

And present

Thank you,

t_0

in

States

vs.

Nordyke

District

Court

Counsel's

Deputy

County

office.

sj-r.

MS. MERRILEES: And A]lison

Merrilees,

1_1_

Deputy Attorney

I2

Division

at the Cal-ifornia

1-3

0.

BY MR. KILMER: Mr. Chinn, can we refer

I4

yoür should

1-5

use your

first

I6

A.

Sure, that's

71

O.

Vühich?

1_B

A.

Ignatius.

1"9

O.

Thank yoür Ignatius.

20

for

Cal-ifornia.

Raymond McKay,

Counsel-, Alameda County

9

Donal-d Kil-mer

also.

MR. MacKAY:

B

counsel-

Russel-l- AIf en Nordyke

pending

6

f 's

am Pl-aíntif

General,

we refer

counsel- for

the Firearms

Department of

Justice. to

to you as Mr. Chinn or can we

name?

Can you please

2t

present

22

A.

The Cal-ifornia

23

O.

And how long

24

A.

A littl-e

25

A.

Who did

fine.

state

for

the

record

your

employer?

over

Department have

you been

f ifteen

Vou work

of

with

Justice.

employed

and a half before

that?

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there?

vears.

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A.

Oakl-and Police

z

O.

How long

3

A.

Twenty

4

O.

lühat were

q

PoIice

6

A.

7

Operations

I

promoted

to

9

Criminal-

Investigation

Department.

did

you

years

five

work

for

months

duti-es

vour

them? days.

three

with

the

Oakland

Department? I

was a patrolman for

10

approximately

11

investigator

1,2

narcotics,

eleven

serqeant

for in

and

nine

was one of

the

gang unit

the

15

O.

16

to

t7

A.

1B

hlas assigned

19

Cal-ifornia

20

Asian

2L

A.

Okay.

And what

22

A.

I

through

23

I

24

Cal- State

25

department

work

for

the

to

organized

went in

CID,

worked as an recovery,

theft

who

retired.

you subsequently

nine

of

went

Justice?

and a hal_f vears for

office working

I

the

organized,

and gangs.

And

still

is high

Hayward whÍl-e and I'm

was

detectives

Investigation

crime

'67 .

I

San Francisco

of

I

Department

And for

Bureau

graduated

and then

California

the

to

years

foundinq

And then

Correct.

where

I

robbery.

started

right.

Special

was assiqned

und.ercover

I4

All

I

and a half

theft,

in

and on I-L1-82

Division

f

l_J

years

burglâry,

auto

patrol_

in

for

your

school- at many years

working in

education?

the

for

the

search

Oakland I

High.

attended

police of

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

a degree.

1

a.

2

.l-r¡'ininn?

3

Ä

4

identifícation,

6

operations

All

I

6

right

Do you have any

have been

in criminal

first

B

Oakland, California. During seminars

11

United

StaLes

1,2

Bureau

of

13

nomencl-ature

1,4

given

that by

time

Colt,

Army,

Alcohol

Are

and packaging

and sales

repairs

I

attended

Smith

in

numerous

& V{esson, the

Federal_ Bureau

Tobacco

a gun store

for

of

& Firearms

Investigration, on firearms

and operation. you POST certified?

15

A

Yes.

76

^

Okay.

I1

in

1B

A.

19

charge

I

have

a supervisor

And who is

the Cal-ifornia

POST certi_ficate.

your

immediate

Department of

Justi_ce?

My Ímmediate Carlos

narcotic

areas.

sales and then in

10

nn'li¡a

a l s o w o r k e d f r o m 1 , 9 1 4t o I g B l a s a

7

9

in

intoxication

I've in

trained

qnani¡l

supervj_sor

ís

supervisor

special

agent

in

Sol-ano.

20

All

2L

He reports

right.

And who does direct.ly

to

he report

Deputy

22

Dal-e Furato.

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O.

And then who does he report

24

A

He reports

25

ô

AII

right.

directly

Director

to?

to Director

Thank you.

to?

And if

Randy Rossi. I didn't

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

ask

1

you earlier,

¿

A.

Special Agent Supervísor.

3

O.

Al-1 right.

4

A.

My initial

Firearms

Division

6

your titl-e

what is

now?

Vühat are your responsibil-ities? responsibility with

was to supply the

firearms

expertise

nomencl-ature and operations. My secondary responsibilities

ö

supervise

9

investigative

t-0

a crew of nine

special

I

also

have

from North Kern County

under

1_3

property

vault

1 A

Northern

California

area.

15

O.

Vühen you

supervise

L6

of

L7

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1B

what

L9

Prohibited

20

program

over

2L

through

there

22

denial-

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automatic

24

are

25

they

my supervision

work

in

do they Vüell,

we call-

in

property

Sacramento

our

which

these

control-fer

firearms

is

for

whole

the

agents,

kind

what

do? sj-nce June of

Senate

Bill

are

Firearms

and then

personrs

system

cases

through t-hor¡rro

to

in

are

and from

CI

that & I

rcfarq¡sed

our come

for

the

to

the

see how many firearms

name who is

been equated

been doing

which

âDy denials

referenced

firearms

2002 we've

950 cases

4949 Broadwayr

background

haven't

47 counties.

who controls

Possession

that

is

a civili-an

1,2

are to

agents which have

responsibil-ities

to Oregon which approximately

1,1,

f =

and

the

prohibited system

with

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and why no

1

longer

possession

2

or

destruction.

for

and then

4

So,

the

those with

criminal

7

Vaqos Motorcycle

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down in

organizations

the

cases

as evidence given

are

people

the

purchase

which

we've

Gang and the

central

And we've

to

to

find

us out

when they

11

sell-

them to

1,2

show compliance

t_J

0.

Yourre

74

A.

Very.

15

O.

So you're

J_O

the

Gun Show Enforcement

L1

as Penal

Code Section

1B

A.

And one.

79

O.

And one.

come to

us

and we have within

2L

as an expert

22

A.

Yes.

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Okay.

24

A.

fn

25

operation

people

from

the

that

41 counties

occur

want

that

responsibility

for

north

of

to gun Kern.

a busy guy.

famil-iar

with

Act

of

the

provisj-ons

20OO otherwise

of known

1,2011,.4?

Thank you r rm ê^Fr'

What

the

gang members

qun cases

done machine

that

us,

done from

Norteno

from

cases

val-lev.

10

20

system

guns are.

o

a

in

We al-so do undercover

9

1

or

we make contact

where those

5

forms

for

me.

correcting

Have you ever

testified

before?

In

assault

what

areas

of

expertise?

weapons nomencl_ature

and machine

gun nomencl-ature

and

and operation

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

1

and prohibit.ed

¿

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Anything

3

A.

No.

4

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What is

5

show?

6

A.

7

showing

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O.

9

shows ?

possession else

nomencfature

relating

a good working

It I s an expositÍon of

firearms

Okay.

VÍhat are

You mean locations

1l_

O.

Yeah.

I2

A.

State

numerous

13

fairgrounds,

1 A

so forth.

i_5

O.

L6

Russ and Sal-l-ie Nordyke

71

A.

Yes.

1_B

0.

Okay.

1,9

have

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surveill-ances

22

Fairgrounds.

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that

25

Fairgrounds

hotel-s,

Are

put

And where

venues

for

these

happen?

they

county and so on and

centers

familiar

a gun

vendors

show places,

convention

you

of

and ammunition.

the

where

agricultural

Okay.

definition

some of

A.

their

by

firearms?

and accessories

10

f =

to

and operation.

with

the

shows that

some of

the

places

on?

are

they

shows? The only at

Okay. used

to

show that is, at

Are

take

the

I've

ever

Santa

you ar^iare that

place

at

the

done compliance

C1ara County

there

Alameda

were County

?

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with

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,

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some Iaw enforcement work there

and state

putting

laws while

on

gun shows?

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Ä

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9

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they

cooperative

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üIhen they

11

activities

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firearm

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to

try at

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with

and tol-d

her

law

enforcement

enforcement

shows?

üIhenffindaviofation about

Can you give

it

any

I

have

to

and she rectifies

examples,

Nordykes

gone

have

compliance

it

âDy specific helped

you

the

California

with

make

laws? Yeah.

Thev have notified

be a problem

go over

and take

with

who had brought

24

this

vendor

there

Theyrll

ask me

a look.

switchbl-ades actually,

The first

me that

one vendor.

And on one occasion

¿ J

25

lu- vn

knowJ-edge do the Nordykes compl-y

all- federal

their

22

rr qarl

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two

vendor

it

was an Oregon

vendor

in

and we o n o n e

case

separate

was asked

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the

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and he complíed

person

show this

saps and everything

4

are

under

wrong

at

And that

and under

there

person.

the

So,

information

their that

else

that

and

had

actually

and we justr

a violatíon

and we cited

know,

going

it

bring

we ceased was,

and that

was

something

l-ocation. was brought

your

to

attention

by

Nordykes?

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A.

Right.

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A.

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of

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A.

Yes.

1 t l a t

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Can you

15

those?

1_6

A.

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surveillances

of

1B

Nevada at

exhibition

1,9

Hotel.

20

O.

Okay.

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A.

W eI r e

22

transactions

occur

ZJ

Cal-ifornians

and they

z.+

accessories

za

the

the

State

of

ever

Cal-ifornia?

give

The last

state

the

like

any gun shows outside

attended

two the

can

vears

we've

gun shows that buil-dino

And why are

there

me about

conducted occur

in

Reno,

the

Hilton

you t.here?

from

bring

tel-l-

and at

numerous

avrare that

high

you

me

Nevada residents

the

capacity

ill-eqal

guns back maqazines

il1egal1y.

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differences

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show in

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6

laws.

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between

differences,

a gun show in

Vüe1l-, under

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9

in

has

to

comply

is

transaction

with

1_1

in

f'dfr which

a transacti-on

fn

Nevada resident

13

not

1 A

Nevada resident,

15

conduct

T6

anything

licensed

this

li-censed,

whose selling those

and then

1B

young Asian

mal-e doing

1_9

buying

guns

20

l-earned

after

2I

l-icense

was fraudul-ently

22

California

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in

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25

California

hand

Are

county

complete

to

ff

on the

this

at

him

as a

table

walks

with

Truckee

to

gun. a

and we later the

that

Nevada

he was a ' i n 1 -r ì ¡ l

currentl.'

any other

or

10 tables

and that

charges

attempting

the

we identified

al-most

obtained

on our

can

any backqround

weapons at

whose

doing

year

last

a

a vendor

two Nevada residents

you aürare of

residents

to

himself guns

of

party

deal-er.

gang member and he is

Dorado

have

thinq.

and assault

stopping

cal-l-ed

neither

if

no such

person

And September

a section

they

without

that

and federal-

that

a licensed

identifies

al-l- firearms

state

state

mandates

a transaction

I1

with

Nevada therers

L2

El

a gun

say Nevada or

1 , 2 0 1 1 " . 1 ,a n d f o u r

And we have

the

the

some of

California?

1

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the

now. incidents evade

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of

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law

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Yes.

3

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Can you please

4

those?

tr

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6

exhibition

show we followed

purchasing

assault

going

by

to

On two

B

magazines

9

weapons

back

cases

1_0

high

counts

13

hre come back

1 r =A

purchased

i-5

iJ-Iegally.

L6



T1

in

1B

Reno, Nevada?

19

A.

with

firearms

or

,

20

The l-ast

Yes, sir.

22

l-ater

¿5

surrendered

¿ 1

purchased

every

show we went

show we went

him to

in

his

us three

the

to

the

felony

show we go to

someone who has magazínes to--

V Í h e ny o u s a y s h o w s

interrupt.

h/as identified

visited

at

about

cases

about the shows in

Irm sorry.

The last surveil-l-ance

guilty

you'.re talking

context,

Z L

magazine

capacity

two assault

guilty.

pled

high

residents

capacity

pled

and we do detain

of

the

and on the

have

have

I'm going to this

state

Just

from

and high

capacity

I2020A.2.

of

me some examples

Cal-ifornia

suspects

have been --

L2

25

the

show?

occasions

weapons

into

On the suspects

give

separate

the

11_

gun

a Nevada

bv Grass

assaul-t

to the

we were suspect

our and we

Val-l-ev home and he hreapons that

he

Reno show.

So, every

show hre've gone to,

\nrerve been

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

1

abl-e to

watch

¿

parking

Iot

3

authority

4

O.

In

5

A.

Nevada.

6

the

Reno PD that

1

take

any action

B

Cal-ifornia.

9

an illegal in

or in

the the

activity

the

show itself

state

of

we would until

be there,

And needless

high

1-1

tabl-e

at

a California

L2

going

to

be a transaction,

J-J

A.

No.

L4

O.

If

1_5

A

Yes.

L6

them

T1

O.

1_B

helping

19

aren't

20

A.

Yes sir.

Yes,

2L

0.

Irm going

to

22

front

23

I'm

z¿t

ordinance

25

and ask

magazines

and those

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for

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5 6

BY MR. KILMER:

a.

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subsection

9

firearm

like

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and can you te1I

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California

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law

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firearm

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record.

BY MR. KILMER:

T9

of

definition

definition

(Off-the-Record O.

that

to

firearm the

definition?

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ordinance's

compare

MS. MERRILEES: have

attention

the

MR. KILMER:

76

the

me is

Alameda

Back on the record.

to

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appears

some areas

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state

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is

in

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. record.

definition the

of

definition

law.

any ansbrer for that

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okay

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record.

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me?

some areas

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of

1

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musket,

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hiar era

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ask you to

6

Subsecti-on F Subsection

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the ordinance

that

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possessj-on of

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specificalJ-y

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picture

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productions

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production

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at

the part

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deals with

authorizes

television

and

in motion

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to possess firearms

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or event. Do part

13

four.

a look

take

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15

connected with

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checks on permittees

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destructive

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regulating

25

use in

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include

your work for

regulation

of

the

firearms

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We're tasked with

and prop houses that

licenses

So is

me what some of that

doing the background

and permits

devices within

Okay.

in

this

entertaínment

industrv

industry at

to possess

state.

the regulatory

the entertainment

have

scheme for and the

l-east simil-ar

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gun shows for

personaf

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have

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in

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ever

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attend

a gun show

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normally

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and not

didn't

handle

a gun show anyhray,

at

this

they

guns?

Vühich are

public

i-ndustry.

Do you ever attend

24 25

stricter?

that

Yes, sir.

I

more stricter.

picture

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gun shows?

regulating

furniture

number one, not

interested

in

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deal-er

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you?

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21

y o r . tt v e o b s e r v e d

on conduct

compromising

the

investigations

conducted

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Cal-ifornia

20

at a gun

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in

as

shows.

present

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in

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machine

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out

person

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selling

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from ATF that

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0.

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9

A.

Bureau of A]cohol- Tobacco and Firearms.

10

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11

counterpart

L2

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sent undercovers

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the federal-

agency or the federal-

to the work that

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you do?

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cause, I

the Nordyke gun shows to

purchase more machine gun parts

15

which they

16

O.

okay.

I7

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probable

cause for

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house in Napa which occurred

20

machine guns,

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at this

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23

sawed-off

24

were not

at

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person

from this

accomplished.

assisted another

sawed-off

me in refreshÍng search warrant

my for

the

and we found more

shotgunsr

so on and so forth

location. Okay.

But just

so we're clear,

shotguns and futly

the

assembl-ed machine guns

the Nordyke gun shows? Just the parts.

EsquireDepositionServrces 800.770.3363

1

n

2

these

3

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4

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that

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the parts

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fook

they are parts

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suspect

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at

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plunger,

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the

--

when he didn't

actually,

the part

show, we paid him for the part

to my undercover.

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Okay. investigatj-on

or

this

work

undercover

conduct were

it

gun show?

the

yes.

woul-d have been more difficult,

allowing

him

from this

we bought

levers.

show and h e s e n t

I

parts

disconnect,

10

22

and the

a machine gun

and some of

for

government

federal-

unit

being

carbine

the

a seven piece

is

itself

I

the

called

of a unit

as in

Cal-ifornia

converts

What do some of

like?

Actually,

is

Okav.

this

there

vendor

these

to

Russ

that

was ilJ-egal

that

mean they

selling

anything

in

charged

machine

gun parts,

MR. MacKAY:

25

Coul-d you break

connection

operate?

weren't

24

with

knowledge r^rere they?

Compound. it

and

down.

EsquireDepositionServrces 800.770.3363

1 2 f

You started off

and you went

to another. BY MR. KILMER:

0.

As part

4 Ã.

regarding

6

not implicated

the machine gun parts, in

that,

No.

B

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Did you --

9

about you call

l_0

a disconnect

13

is

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15

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So there's

16

expertise

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selling

1_B

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Yes.

1-9

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Okay.

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provide

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compliance

22

A.

Yes.

23

0.

By going

24

A.

Absolute]v.

as

fike

look

machine

allow with

and a plunger,

to

the

gun parts

you with

MR. KILMER:

good, who

that

your

these

having

know without

these

open venue

California

to

person

average

somebody whose in

So the

very

parts.

no way to

being

you talk

as you?

knowledgeable

or

that

and a spring

--

what

not

crime

And a plunger.

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woul-d they

that

were they?

BY MR. KILMER:

O.

of

the Nordykes h/ere

now these parts

MR. MacKAY:

11

I did do that.

of your investigation

A.

25

one question

with

the

business

are

illegal?

that

expertise machine

gun

gun to

No further

ensure

law?

shows?

questions

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

shows

of

1

EXAMINATIONBY MR. MacKAY:

2

O.

3

hotel-s and convention

4

that

q

A.

Yes.

6

O.

You mentioned

The same is

true

qun shows hel-d at

for

centers

you mentioned;

that

is

right?

viol-ations B

that

which Sal-lie rectified.

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talking

9

A.

Yes.

10

0.

Vfhat violations

11

A.

The out

L2

switch

blades

13

brought

the

L4

that

15

get

1_6

seized

I7

a.

1B

wel-l,

19

at

20

interest

in

2I

A.

As a private

22

O.

Is

23

like

24

firearms ?

25

A.

of

state

and then bl-ackjack

of f

the

the

ítems

of

state

and the

if

that

for

that

experience

Vüel-l, number one, if

switchblades person

to

one reason

hrere no actuaf not

gun show;

that

who

one we actuall-y

would

citizen,

the

Ðerson.

there or

in

vendor

that

You mentioned

one reason

some extensive

the

to?

who brouqht

The other

that

to

out

Nordyke?

referring

by us telling

show you had no, going

you

and saps

and cited

you mentioned

Sall_ie

vendor

the

tabl-e.

Thank vou.

a gun

about

are

one hras rectified them

found some

voufd

is

have

any

that

right?

guns

yes. given

with

what

sounds

hand guns or

I r n r a sg o i n g

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

--

to a gun

1

shohr

2

done

private III

A

long

which

citizen,

time,

I

be a reason

wouldnrt

there

havenrt

really

to

go.

4

O.

And why not?

5

A

There wouldnrt

6

item that

I woul-d be interested Is it

0. I

perhaps

9

gun safety

10

be a possibility

perhaps

or Well,

II

the

L2

educational-.

take

shows to

a firearm are,

there the

13

BY MR. KILMER:

I4

THE VüITNESS:

15

O.

1,6

education

71

without



A

the

actual-

Yes,

19

that

I

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scouting

2L

firearm

correct?

Nordyke that

some type

show there's actually

that

Irve

Thank

vou.

puts

on some

seen occur.

FURTHER EXAM]NAT]ON BY MR. KILMER:

for

the shotgun

scouting or

qun

performed

¿ J

25

of

aspects

are

so.

cfasses

Now the

gi-ven at

certificate.

MR. MacKAY:

ô

later?

for?

22

24

basic

so that's

HSC test

gun present;

the

cl-asses

coul-d be met or

organization safety

are

And there

about

purchase

Hand gun safety

believe

And at

learn

And HSC stands

BY MR. MacKAY: safety

to

there

written

someone with

that

go to

would

l-ess experience

an

seeing

in.

possible

equally

of

rifl-e

orqani-zation merit

badge

i-s that for

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

the

l-ike Boy

of

1

Scouts?

2

A.

3

put on the safety

4

for

q

O.

6

Sal-l-ie Nordyke wasnrt

I believe

their

itrs to

I bel-ieve it

marksmanship merit Just to clarify

brought

a violation

could rectify

9

A.

Yes.

l-0

O.

That was with

t_1

switchblades

L2

Alameda ordinance?

l_3

A.

t4

Penal Code.

No.

is

a requirement

badge.

Mr. McKay's cl-arification,

in violation

to your

B

they actually

actually,

attention

so that

you

the situation?

respect

to blackjacks

none of which are regulated

They're

regulated

1_5

MR. KILMER:

L6

No further

L1

MR. MacKAY: No further

1B

Thank you.

L9

(Whereuponthe deposition

and

by this

by the California

Thank you.

questions. questions.

concluded at

20 2t 22

She

of any 1aw.

--oOo--

23 24 25

EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

11-:08 a.m. )

1

Pursuant

2

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certify

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made those

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necessary,

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correct.

7

to

Section

of

that

the I

Dated

State

have

this

(q)

2025 of

read

(1) of

the

California,

I

my deposition

and corrections the

that

Code of Civil hereby transcript, f deem

s a m e a s n o h r true

day of

,

B 9 1_0

IGNATIUS H.

and

CHINN

11 L2 IJ

1 A

15 1_6 L7 1B 19 20 2L 22 23 24 25

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REPORTER'S CERTTFTCÀTE

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certify

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4 5

was by

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place

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20

23 24 25

nor

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transcríbed

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within-entitled,

I,ATIRTE State of

fr,

LERDA, Californía

R 3649

set

ny hand

CHANGES/CORREC'IIONS Page/t,ine

"

From

To

)

V[ûúnessSigmatune

Date

29 ableL6:1,722:15 Absolutely23:24 accessoriesll:7 13:24 accomplished2l:15 Act 10:16 acted16:15 action16:7 activities12:11 activity 16:1 actual24:1825:17 ADAMS l:6 agency21:10 agent8:189:2 agents9:8,15 agreement16:5 agricultural1l:12 Alameda1:II,l23:72 6:8 ll:2416:23 l8:l26:12 17:11,20 Alcohol8:1221:9 ALISON 3:21 Allen 1:36:3 Allison6:10 allow23:20 allowing22:21 ammunitionI l:7 Al[N l:4 answer17:23 antique l9:25 anyway 19:9 APPEARÄNCES3:1 appeared5:7 appears17:24 approve2T:5 approximately7:10 9:10 APR]IL2S:22 area9:14 areas8:5 10:23l7:24 17:25 Army 8:l I arrested16:16 arrests20:10 Asian7:2014:18 askedl2:2517:19 aspects25:I 5 assault10.'2414:19 I5:7,8,2316:10 21:23 assembled 7:8,18 assigned assisted2l:17 ATF2l:5,8 attempting14:25 attend 19:17,20 attended7:238:9 13:ll attentionl3:8 17:7

26:7 Attorney3:226:ll authority 16:3 authorizesl8:9 autoT:12 automatic9:2322:7 Avenue3:6 average23:12 awarell:2313:21 l4:24 a.m2:4,5 5:226:19 B l:4 back13:1,23,24 l5:8 15:1316:717:6,18 20:17 background9:22 l4:I5 18:19 badge25:2526:4 BAKER 1:6 BALTES l:6 based20:10 basic25:8 beginning2:4 behaW2:2 believe20:1525:18 26:2,3 Bill9:18 blackjackl3:3 24:13 blackjacks26:10 blades24:12 BLAIR l:6 BOARD 1:12 Bob l:6 bought22:8 Box3:23 Boy25:25 break22:25 brief l7: 14 bring 13:1,23 broader17:1I,24 Broadway9:20 brought12:23l3:8 24:11,13 26:7 building13:18 Bureau7:198:Il,l2 2l:9 burglary7:11 business 23:16 busyl0:13 buying14:19

c C l:5 CalT:24 Californial;2,192:4 3:7,16,20,24 5:4,6

6:5,12,22 days7:3 7:16,19 8:8 commencing 5:2 dba 1:4 8 : 1 79 : 1 4 1 2 : 1 7 compare17:9,19 dealer14:1020:25 13:12l4:3,22,25,25 competitively19:15 2I:3 1 5 : 61 6 : 8 , 1 1 , lL77: 9 complete14:9 20:19 l7:12,2120:18 dealers 22:6 compliance 10:12 23:2126:13 27:2 deals18:7 1 l : 2 0 1 2 : 1273 : 2 1 28:1,7 deem27:4 complied13:l Defendant3:l0 Californians13:23 complyI2:5 l4:5 l:13 call9:1823:9 Defendants complying16:18 definition1l:4 17:8,10 called5:9 l4:7 22:3 Compound22:24 capacity13:24l5:7,10 compromising20:14 17:12,19,20 1 5 : 1 41 6 : 1 0 degreeT:25 computer-assisted capital5:17 denial9:22 28:15 denials9:20 caption28:20 26:19 concluded DENNIS l:6 carbineZ2:7,8 conduct14:1520:10 3:206:12 Carlos8:19 department 22:15 6:227:1,5,16,25 8:17 CARSONl:10 conducted13:1620:9 I8:14 case1:512:2320:14,14 connected 18:15 3:19 Deponent 28:19 connection22:20 l:17 2:1,2 deposition cases9:18,1910:2,5,9 contact10:3 4:195:24,25 26:19 l5:9,10 contextl5:17 c a u s e 2 l : 1 2 , 21 8 : 1 1 controller9:I I 27:328:18 6:7,11 Deputy3:13,22 ceased13:4 controls9:12 centersll:13 24:3 8:2I conventionll:.13 24:3 central 10:8 destruction10:2 conversation17:14 destructivel8:22 certificate8:1525:14 Conversion22:4 detain15:13 certified2:65:48:14 converts22:.7 detectives 7:13 28:5,14,24 cooperative12:9 2l:12 cerfify 27:3 28:7,17 develop correct7:17 l8:3,4 CHAN 1:10 devices18:22 2 5 : 1 72 7 : 6 chance16:25 differences14:1,2 correctingl0:19 difficult 22:18 changes27:4 corrections27:4 direction28:15 charge8:19 counsel3:11,14 5:19 directly8:21,24 charged22:22 6:2,8,1128:17 I)irector 8:21,24 charges14:23 Counsel's6:8 22:923:9 checksl8:20 disconnect counterpart21:1I 20: 17,20,21 C h i n nl : 1 82 : l 3 : 1 9 discovered counties9:10l0:12 17:5,17 discussion 5:8,17,25 6:13,14 counts15:12 17:1427:1028:8 c o u n t yl : 1 1 , 1 13 : 1 1 , 1 1 Districtl:1,26'.4,5 CI9:21 Division6:127:99:5 3 : 1 35 : 56 : 7 , 8 9 : 9 d o i n g 9 : 1174 : 1 5 , 1 8 CID 7:8 lI:12,21,2414:23 1 8 l:9 citedl3:5 24:16 l8:828:3,6,25 dolls19:25 citizen24:2125:l Court l:l6:,4 Donald3:4,56:2 Civil2T:1 crew9:8 Dorado14:23 civilian9:l I crimeT'.2023:4 draw l7:7 Clara 11:21 criminalT:98:5 10:6 DUANE l:5 clarifïcation 26:5 CSRl:23,24 duly 5:1028:9,13 clarify 26:5 currently 14:22 duties7:4 18:13 classes 25:10,21 C-h-i-n-n5:18 classifyl8:2 D clear2I:22 clock19:18 d I:232:65:4 l4:8 l7:8 E 3 : 5 earlier9:1 Code10:1726:1427:l 28:5,23 education7:2125:16 collection19:16 DaleS:22 25:12 educational collector20:7 dance18:10 either28:18 Colt8:10 Dated2T:7 El14:23 come9:20 10:1015:13 DAVIS 1:5 elevenT:7 L6:7 day27:728:22

EsquireDeposition Services 800.770.3363

30 employed6:23 employer6:21 enforcementl0:16 12:2,9,I020:6 enforcing16:18 engage12:10 ensure23:20 entails18:18 18:15 entertainment 18:24,25 equally25:7 equated9:25 era l8:.2 E S Q3 : 55 : 1 4 Esquire2:2 evade14:25 eventl8:12 evidencel0:l EX4:21 EXAMINATION 4:1,6 5:L424:L25:23 examined5:10 example18:1

five7:3 flintlock 18:3 Floor2:3 5:3 followed15:6 form 5:21 forms10:1 forth5:11lI:I421:20 îound2l:L9 24:6 founding7:13 four 14:418:6 FOIIRNIER 1:7 Francisco7:18 fraudulently14:21 Friday 1,:20 2:5 5:l front 16:22 lully 2l:23 22:7 FuratoS:22 furniture l9:25 further23:2525:23 26:16,L7 28:17

GAIL l:10 gang7:14l0:7,714:22 gangsT:20 exceptions18:7 general3:22 6:lI l9:.9 Excuse17:15 give12:1513:14I5:3 Exhibit5:1316:22 exhibition13:1815:6 given8:10l0:224:22 25:10 E)GIIBITS 4:16 experience24:2325:8 go l2:I,21 l5:I2 l7:3 25:3,8 expert l0:21 going13:715:1,16 expertise9:5 10:23 16:12,21,23I8:5 23:16,20 20:323:2324:20,25 explosives19:6 g o o d1 1 : 42 3 : 1 1 exposition11:6 government22:5 24:23 extensive graduatedT:23 F Grass15:22 guilty 15:9,11 F 18:6 gun 8:7 l0:9,1I,16,25 fairgroundsll:13,22 ll:4 L2:7l3:Il,l7 ll:25 14'.2,2,16 15:116:11 familiar10:151l:15 16;1719:1,9,17,20 federalS:ll 12:6l4:5 22:5 20:2,L1,18,19 2l:13 18:212l:10,10 2l:14,2422:6,17,23 felonyl5:ll 23..5,17,19,21 24:2 fifteen6..24 24:19,20,25 25:.9,14 find 10:312:12 25:15,I7 fine6:16 firearm 12:18I7:9,10 guns10:413:2314:13 14:1919:6,2120:1,2 I7:20,2118:2,24 20:19,22 2l:I,6,20 25:9,2I 2l:23 24:18,23 fîrearms6:118:12,12 9:5,5,12,19,23,23 guy 1:4l0:13 1l:2,7l4:415:14 H 19:12 l8:8,1L,L4,21 I I l : 1 82 : l 3 : 1 95 : 8 2l:9 24:24 27:1028:8 first2:35:3,96:158:7 HAGGERTY 1:11 2l:3 12:25

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EsquireDeposition Services 800.770.3363

22:223:12 lot16:2 M

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EsquireDeposition Seruices 800.770.3363

20:18 sending sent2l:1322:14 separate12:24l5:5 14:17 September sergeant7:8 served20:20 Services2:3 set5:I I 28:2I setting16:9 seven22:4 Shorthand2:6 5:528:5 28:14,24 shot19:15 shotgun25:25 2l:20,23 shotguns show10:12,16ll:5,12 ll:20l3:214:2,3 l5:1,6,L2,15,20,24 15:2516:2,11,17 l9:9,2020:3,11 24:19,20 22:13,14,17 25:1,19 showing1l:7 showsl:4 l1:9,15,19 ll:2312:7,1113:11 13:1715:16,17l9:l 19:1720:I2l:13,24 24:225:Il 23:19,23 similar18:25 sir 6:9 15:1916:20l9:7 situation26:8 small14:819:1623:14 Smith8:10 Solano8:19 20:623:16 somebody sorry 10:20l2:l 15:19 sounds24:22 spanned2l :2 special 7:68:1,189:2,8 specific12:15 specificallyl8:9 spring23:9 ss28:2 stands25:13 started7:1423:I state3:205:66:207:24 ll:12 12:613:12,25 l4:5,7 l5:8 16:3,4 l 7 : 2 11 8 : 2 2 1 9 : 1 0 22:624:ll,I2 27:2 28:1,6 statement20:5 S t a t e ls: 1 6 : 48 : 1 1 STEELE1:10 stipulation5:20 stoppingl4:20 store8:7 3:155:3 Street2:3

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EsquireDepositionServices 800.770.3363

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ORDINANCE NO. CODE SECTTON 9.12.120OF THECOUNTYORDTNANCE AN ORDTNANCE AMENDING ON COUNWPROPERTY PROHIBITING THE POSSESSION OF FIREAR¡IJIS

ot t'åt*ËT'i?Tr"åttãfi3i**oFALAMEDA rHEBoARD seêr¡otr |

'

Thatthe OrdinanceCodeof the Countyof Alamedashallbe amendedby revisingSection 9.12.120to readas follows: 9.12,120Possessionof Firearmson County PropertyProhlblted ' (a) findsthatgunshotfatatitiesand inJuriesare of Flndlngs. The Boardof Supervisors in AlamedaCounty. Duringthefirstfiveyearsof the 1990's879 epídemicproportions usingfirearms,and an additional1,647victimswere homicideswerÊ'committed hospitali4ed wlthgunshotinjuries. Firearmsarethe leadingcauseof deatharnong young'people betweenthe agesof 15 and 24 In AlamedaCounty.BetweenJuly1, 1996 and June30, 1997,136juvenileswerearrestedin Oaklandfor gun-relatedoffenses.On July4, 1998a shootingIncidentonthe AlamedaCountyFairgrounds resuftedin several gunshotwounds,otherinjuriesand panicamongfqirgoers. Proh[biting the possession of firearmson Countypropertywíllpromotethe publichealthand safetyby contribut¡ng to the reductionof gunshotfatalitiesand injuriesin the County. (b)

on Countypropertya Misdemeanor.*aO personwhcibringsontoor possesses gullty for a firearmis firearm,loaded'orunloaded,or ammunition of a misdemeenor..

'(c) ' -Counþ Propert¡1.As usedin thissectlon,the termCountypropertymeansroal . '.:. property,includingany buildingsthereon,ownedor.leasedÞy.t¡eCounty.of Alameda .(hereinafter and in the County'spossassion, "Countyr), or in the possessionof.apublic or privateenti$ undercontractwiththe Countyto performa publicpurpose,includin$but . not limítedto real propefi ownedor leasedby theiCountyin the unlncorporatedand portionsof the County,suchas the Countyparkín Sunoland the Alameda incôrporated ' . CountyFairgrounds In the.Cityof Pleasanton, but doesnot inclúdeany "local.publíc bulldlng'asdef¡nedin PenalCodeSectlon171b(c),wherethe Stateregulates . possession of firearmspursuantto PenalCodeSectlon171b. (d) .

Firearm. "Firearm'isanygun,pistol,revolver,rifleor any'device,designedor modified to be usedas a weapon,fromwhichis expelledthror.rgh a barrela projectileby the force 'Flrearml doesnot include'imitation of an explosionorotherformof combustion. CodeSectíon53071.5. firearmeor BBgunsand air rifles'asdefinedin Goverriment

(e)

ls anyammuniüon as definedin PenalCodeSeðtlon Ammunition. 'Ammunitlon" 12316(bX2).

(f)

doesnot applyto the'following: 9.12.120(b) Exceptfons.Subsection (1) A peaceofficeras definedin Title3, Part2, Chapter4.5 oÍ the California

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PenalCode(sections 830ef seg.); ol mgYs.engei of a financiálinstitution. g,uard .(2) t a guardof a contractcanier operatingan armoredvehicle,á l¡censedprivateinvest¡gätðr;;ãi.iõätä;;;j#; Pmp.aly operator,or uniformedseclrity guardar tnesõãriiñiñ;ãr" definedin Penal'codesecllon12031(d)açdwho trol¿sa validcertíficatäis.räãËv me oefariment of ConsumerAffairsunderPenalCodesection12ög3,whileactuallyäploye¿ and engagedin protectingand preserving propertyor ¡¡rew¡tlri;th" säË" hís or her employment; "f (3) A p.ej!!|r holdinga val¡dlicensetg carrya firearm.issued pursuant to penal ' Codesection12050; (4) The possession of a firearrnoy an authorized participant in a motionpicture, television,video,dance,or theatricalproäuctionoievent,whenthe parilcipant usesthe I'irearmas partof thatproductionor event,providedthatwhensuch lararfr.rlfy firearmis. not ln the actualposses'síon of the authorizedparticlþant. ¡t ¡sseìurôã'iopr"u"nt .. unauthorÍzed . use. Countyroads; .--(6) A personlawfulfyusingthe targetrangeoperatedby the AtamedaCounty Sheriff, or tawenforcement Q A federalcriminalinvestígator officer;or (8) A memberof the militaryforcesof the Stateof California '- or -' of - the United stateswhileengagedin the performahce of his or her dutv. .(g) . Severability.lf any provisionof thissectionor the application thereofto any personor circumstance isheld invalid,suchinv¿lidityshatlnot aifectanyotherpàvisiän or applícation of thissectionwhichcan be giúeneffectwithoutttrbi""ãi¡äprouiiiåÀo.' applicatíon, andto this endthe provisionlof thissectionare severablã. ' .SECTION II . This ordinanceshalltakeeffectand be in fdrcethirty (30) daysfrom and aftei the date of passageand befoiethe expfration of fifreenOaysafiei itépaósageit shallbe publishedonce'with the namesof the membersvotingfor and againstlhesamein ihé lnter-City -r eipiesJ, ---' á publishedin the Countyof Alarneda. newspeper of the County'ofAlameda,Stateof Catifomia,on the 2l"r {dop!e-dbVthe Boardof Supervisors dayof Septernber; 1999,by the followingcalledvóte: AYES: NOES; EXCUSED: . WILMACHAN Presidentof the Boardof gupervisors Counþ of Alameda, State of Callfornia

ATTEST:CRYSTALK. HISHIDA,Clerk of the Boardof Sup'ervisors, Countyof Alameda Approved o$ fo Form

By

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