07_03_30 About Discerning Ministries

-------Original Message------From: Bible lover Bill Date: 06/19/05 14:54:38 To: Karl & Linda Ubrig Subject: Re: BH and Prophetic Movement Linda, Since you were a long time friend of Dolo's, I kept from telling you of my concern about your praise for Benny Hinn. I was surprised this e-mail. We have a lot more in common than I thought. I have inserted my responses below: -------Original Message------From: Karl & Linda Ubrig Date: 06/19/05 12:48:17 To: Bible lover Bill Subject: Re: BH and Prophetic Movement Bill, Yes, I did read all the articles down to the last period. ***Response from Germany-- I am glad that you read all. And I would never go so far as to say that everything said could very well be right. And yes, we should judge what goes out, but before we start a big campaign against a person we should first pray for the leadership around this person to be the first to approach them about the problems. That is also the Apostle Paul's advice. When the leadership fails then and only then should it be brought before the congregation (not the whole Body of Christ around the World) and they should first go to prayer and decide what should be done. And even when it finally comes again to failed attempts to correct the problems, I still feel that we should be very careful what we say to others. ***Response from Germany-- I am the most concerned about the unBiblical teaching because of the warnings in the last chapter of the Bible and the exhortations about wrong teaching elsewhere. I do not have a campaign against Benny Hinn or anyone else. I do not like having to share such information. But I know you and your husband want to do more ministry and I was concerned about what you both would teach others because of your high regard for Mr. Hinn. He has been approached and exhorted in private by at least the Evangelist James Robison back in the 1980s and he rejected the exhortations. I am very sure others have tried. The author of a book about him did try. Mr. Hinn is not under any church authorities so the rest of Matthew 18:15-17 cannot be done or 1 Corinthians 6. I would rather hear something like," Hey folks, there seems to be some very real problems in Benny Hinn's ministry and we as believers need to prayer and ask the Lord how we should pray for him and the ministry.(period!)" ***Response from Germany-- Where in the Bible does it indicate such? What is being shared now in public about the Christian leaders who have gone from their good beginnings is not gossip. They are quotes directly from the preachers. Also, you know the best intercessory prayer is done when one has details to pray about. More should not be said. Is not our Great Big Heavenly Father and our Saviour and the Holy Spirit not quite able (after creating the world , the universe and all that is in it) to inform the Body of Christ around

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the World who to pray for and how to pray for them without us taking the sword to them. Believe me, I have used the sword very unwisely and found out how the double edge sword could turn around on me and that no matter how right, bibically I thought I was. I am not condemning you or the others in anyway about the need to pray but just giving a warning to be careful about how you do it. ***Response from Germany-- God uses human beings to do such attempts to correct such leaders. Check the history of Christianity, especially the revivals. Many of such leaders like Benny Hinn did end up poor and with awful health problems. Do you know of the late Brandham who many even now considered the Prophet for the End Times. Dolo just told me yesterday that the leading charismatic group for setting up things for "faith healers" here in Hannover has had to stop after 12 years. She was shocked. From John G. Elliott: Characteristics of a fleshly ministry: 1. striving-- trying to open a door of opportunity on my own effort 2. frustration 5. selfish ambition 3. burn-out 6. shallowness 4. self-promotion 7. pleading for money Characteristics of a Holy Spirit-led ministry: 1. historic evidence of the work of Divine Providence of opening and closing doors for ministry 2. peace and contentment 5. humility 3. freshness 6. spiritual depth 4. the promotion of God, not self 7. adequate provision That group was doing a lot of merchandising of expensive things and helping some very unBiblical preachers. They even had expensive courses for faith living. I believe that only 2% of what is being done as "speaking in tongues", "signs and wonders", and prophesying is Holy Spirit urged and done. The rest is human done for pleasing others so the doers feel acceptable. And Bill, you are talking to someone who was raised so Baptist that you could not make me anymore Baptist since my grandfather was a "Fire, Hell, and Damnation" Baptist preacher and all he ever read was his Bible and sometimes the newspaper. He preached to us from the moment we entered his house till we left. And my parents never missed a meeting except for sickness all the years I was growing up. I always say that I was born, fed, dressed, and grew-up in the church and in the Word of God and had to memorize it as well. ***Response from Germany-- I am not for such either. I was exposed to several types of hyper fundamentalism churches and an elder in two of them. In the GARB, they avoided even speaking the phrase “Holy Spirit” because of their hatred for charismatics. I never could have hatred or even dislike of something I didn’t know about. I could only have hatred about what God hates. The GARB even condemned Rev. Billy Graham because he had “non-believers” in the pastor group on the platform in his crusades and even referred people to go to non-Baptist churches. I could not think likewise, but I did receive some good Bible teaching in those churches and Bible churches. God has had me exposed to other different Christian churches and religions so that I could be sympathetic and compassionate with other people. I know that all of us have to be convinced that true Christianity is much much better than what we have been in. I was raised in the First Congregational Church which has become very liberal and just good works emphasis instead of the Gospel and Jesus Christ. I keep praying for people in that church; it has the best church building complex I have ever seen (not fancy but very Christian looking with a huge boulder half in and half out of the front of it). It wasn't until 1982 that I realized how un-Biblical were the beliefs and the ministries of that church. I was first married in a Roman Catholic church. My first full time teaching ministry was in a Christian school supported by an Assembly of God Church. My next ministry was teaching in a Christian school supported by a small GARB church. I also went to

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Church of Christ, Southern Baptist, Independent/Conservative Baptist, Bible, Brethren, Methodist, and a number of different charismatic churches. In all, I looked for the good. I also did one time visits to various cult meetings. All churches and cults have a lot of God's truths, but all of them also have non-God-pleasing beliefs and doctrines. The Apostle Paul warned several times about man's traditions and false teaching. It is hard for anyone to admit wrong and to change a habit. I am not for “forced” Bible memorizing and “forced” Bible reading. I am not for the “Hell, fire, damnation” preaching or any yelling preaching. I am not for “being forced to repeat a statement made by the pastor” usually to someone sitting nearby. I am not even forced for being told to stand up and sit down during worship. I am not for any manipulation done by church leaders. I have enjoyed home groups, discussion Sabbath and Sunday school, Holy Spirit led worship, verse by verse Bible teaching, and intercessory prayer groups. Still my experience with the Holy Spirit was just as profound as my experience with Salvation and deeply moving. And I never want to stop learning at the feet of the Holy Spirit of all that He desires to share with us of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and our wonderful Heavenly Father. And that includes the prophectic no matter how many Baptists tried to say that it and healing and all the other gifts of the Spirit all died with the Apostles - and yes, I have been told that by many a Baptist. I now consider myself and Charismatic Baptist and that will not change. ***Response from Germany-- After loosing a ministry for not having done such and after begging God for a few months, I first spoke in tongues in January of 1975. In 1988 in a Washington D. C. church, I stood behind a woman who had been given some of the same words that I had received from God! In obeying the Holy Spirit of going to the church He had me see in the Yellow Pages ads, I had to walk several miles and go past at least 6 other churches. A number of other things happened at that church to confirm I was in the right place. Outside the Oaklawn Race Track in Arkansas, I sang in tongues for the first time while we waited to pass-out Christian tracts to those leaving (most in despair because of the money they lost). I played the flute “by the Spirit” (not “by ear”) songs I never heard before in the First Congregational Church of Redwood City, the First Presbyterian Church in Arcata, and various Roman Catholic churches when courting my first wife. That was in the Assembly of God Church I went to in the Fall of 1974. I did such again when I was in Tennessee in 1988 and Arkansas in 1989. I have received words of knowledge and wisdom. I have had divine healings. And the Holy Spirit has helped me transform from a humble selfrighteous worrier to an enduring man of faith. So I have a very charismatic history as well as my Bible loving history. I was actually born again on May 25, 1967, but didn’t really get into the Bible until the end of 1974 after being unjustly fired from my first ministry. Daily I love thinking as Proverbs 3:5-8 says, looking for things to be thankful for, doing whatever the Holy Spirit urges, and praying a lot for others (mostly related to the current events). But I cannot say I am of any denomination; I am only a child of God who loves the Bible and what God loves. Christ-likeness should be our goal. (Philippians 2) I believe that the Word of God together with the Holy Spirit is the only way we will see revival in our day. ***Response from Germany-- I only think on personal revival terms in hope now. I did research of the great Christian revivals in the past and now we don’t have what it takes to have such. I believe that we are in the End Times now, the end of the Age of Grace. How can God be patient much longer, especially with what is happening in the churches and the spiritual warfare caused by denominationalism? You just can not leave out one for the other. Many Baptist Missionaries went to the field to learn that they had only their Salvation experience but no power to deal with all the demonic powers that they had to cope with. Many came and have come home broken for not knowing how to deal with these very real problems. Others discovered the power of the Holy Spirit and saw not only people saved but delivered of all kinds of demonic bondages that salvation alone did not free them of. Sadly I have spoken to many of

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these missionaries who when they came home simply could not share about all these wonderful experiences because they would have been thrown out of the Baptist convention as heretics. I still love all of my Baptist upbringing and wouldn't trade it for nothing but I am also happy to have the power of the Holy Spirit, my comforter, my teacher, etc. I will not trade Him in either. As I said before, we will always have to deal with inbalances in everything as long as we live on this earth but that is still no excuse to "throw the baby out with the bath water". ***Response from Germany-- I have been saddened when I have heard about or read about such testimonies as this. All of the churches I have been in only focus on a small part of the Bible. And I have gone to one which believed that God was wanting to add to the Bible in their church. (I know about the Kansas City group too.) All of the churches I have been to had inbalances of focusing on the Godhead or Trinity. There are so many aspects of true Christianity that require keeping proper balances. Also care needs to be done like in when to be humble and tolerant and when to be bold and exhorting or rebuking. When I asked the Lord to fill me with His Holy Spirit I did not ask the devil for his thing. I asked my Father in Heaven for it in Jesus Name and Jesus Himself said that if a earthly father would not give a stone to his child who asks for bread or a snake when this child asks for fish then how much more will the Heavenly Father, who isn't even to compare to a mere man, and who in His great Love for us will give us what we ask for. I know I received the Holy Spirit because I had the power to witness to people before and afterwards I could witness all over the place with boldness. And at that time I understood nothing about a prayer language but I had it and it was also very real and when I use it, the Word of God simply jumps off the pages in revelation to me. Verses that I have read for years and never understood suddenly become understandable. It is just wonderful and I will never ever deny what the Lord has given me. ***Response from Germany-- My earlier response about the summary of my charismaticism in my life sort of indicates my response to this. We are alike it seems. I'm sorry, I had not meant to get so long-winded. Please, understand that I am not pointing a finger at you or anyone with what I have shared. I'm only sharing what I, myself, have experienced and how blessed and diciplined as well at times by the Lord in all my years of growing up in Him. And it hurts when I feel that others that I also care about seem to be telling me to throw all these precious experiences with the Lord away just because of a few saints who are also struggling in the School of the Lord seem to be off tract. Yes, I will be praying for these people - maybe not daily but as often as the Lord brings them before me to pray for them. ***Response from Germany-- I didn’t notice the “long-winded”ness. I didn’t feel any breeze even. In our two or three phone conversations you were and I had a hard time figuring when the end of a verbal paragraph was about to come so I could give a response to it before you went on to the next one. LOL This is the longest e-mail I have received for a while. Last year, some of the Yahoo and Praize Instant Message chats I had seemed “long-winded”. Blessings in the Lord, Linda ***Response from Germany-Onward for whatever God wants of me, Bill ----- Original Message ----From: Bible lover Bill To: Karl & Linda Ubrig Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 1:21 PM Subject: Re: BH and Prophetic Movement

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Dear Linda, I am not condemning Benny Hinn. The authors of the two articles are not either. We are not "blowing of steam" either. When I went to the meeting in Albuquerque, I felt some things were wrong with the his ministry. Also when I viewed some of his TV programs. I didn't know the details of what is really displeasing God about him until this year. I don't think you read the facts in the two articles I sent you. Don't you remember in Apostle Paul's writings where he had to warn others about false teachers and false preachers, meaning that they were not doing as God desired? Dolo and I don't think either Benny Hinn or Rick Joiner are anointed by God now. God needs more Christians to be praying for such leaders and those who are following their false teachings. Some of the latter have died because of believing about their faith healing doctrine. Onward for God and His Word, Bible lover Bill 2 Timothy 3:16-17 & Psalm 119 http://www.geocities.com/bibleloverbill -------Original Message------From: Karl & Linda Ubrig Date: 06/18/05 13:04:47 To: Bill Stevenson Subject: Re: BH and Prophetic Movement Dear Bill, I can not answer for Binny Hinn or any other man or woman of God anointed by God for a specfic ministry. But I do agree with you that we can pray for any leader in the Body of Christ (as well as other leaders outside of the Body) if what we see or hear from these leaders shows that they are going astray from the Word of God or from the Will of God. God anointed them and it is His business to deal with them - not me. As I have shared with Dolores, I made that mistake with blowing off steam too much over our former pastors because I didn't feel right with some things that were going on and in the end the Lord baned me from Berlin to the little town of Dassel in the middle of the desert(so-to-speak) for two years. The Lord reminded me of what happened with Miriam and also with David's handling of King Saul. I decided that from now on I will be like David and not touch God's anointed people with my mouth by gossiping with people about them on the telepone or emails, etc. I prefer to pray for them and ask the Lord to redirect them to the truth of His Word. And I do believe that the Lord has a better plan in correcting them than I do with my mouth, etc. I like what Rick Joyner said recently in one of his teachings about the circumcision of the flesh: "This is what the church has and is going through. The church has been made to look weak. Through the failures of some highly visible ministries, and such things as the sex scandals (and other scandals as well), the church may look like a real mess, but it is about to arise as a mighty conquering army.....One of the basic principles taught in the Old Testament is that the Lord often used the heathen nations around Israel to discipline His people. He has not changed and we can expect Him to still do this. However, just as the Lord would then judge the heathen nations for being presumptuous enough to touch His people, it is a sobering study to see what happens to those who presumptuously touch His people today...... Many Christians became discouraged by the public revalations of misbehavior in the church, especially when it came through leaders of the church. I still often meet people who began to backslide when this happened. However, the mature and discerning were not discouraged by these revelations......As it is made clear in Hebrews 12, the Lord disciplines His children, and if we are without discipline then we are not His children. Such discipline coming upon the

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church was evidence of God's love for us, including those who where publicly exposed, not His rejection." I think that is good for us all to remember as we deal with all these situations. As for the Prophectic Movement - yes, as with all things in the Body of Christ including Salvation and Baptisim - the enemy never leaves anything untouched. But do I leave my Salvation experience or my Baptisim experience or even the Word of God and throw them all out the window just because of those who abuse them????!!!!!! Of course, I don't and the same goes with the Prophectic Movement as it is supposably called. In fact the whole Bible is Prophectic and Inspired of the Lord through Prophectic revelation and I'm not about to throw it out just because of a few ding-dong and those who follow them. Mistakes and errors in understanding prophectic things (and other things as well) will always happen so long as we live on the earth in these earthly bodies but it is important to learn from every mistake not throw the whole idea out. I believe in the prophectic because the Bible is prophectic and I believe in the prophectic under the Spirit of God and believe that it can be very usefull to us even today. But as believers we do need to ask the Holy Spirit to discern for us what is really from Him and what is not and every believer has that right to do so. Many prophecies given in the pass have saved many Christians lives when they listened to them. God gives these to help us and also for us to pray for people and many cities, countries, etc. And if a prophecy doesn't come completely to pass doesn't always mean that it wasn't a true prophecy. It could mean that the Lord answered our prayers like in Ninevah's and Jonah's day. Right now we are praying for all of California because of the tremors and earthquakes that are starting to happen there. God has given many prophecic words in the years passed about California and the coming earthquakes but even shared what would happen before they would start- like the landslides that have just happened. So we are praying for as many people to be saved as possible and that the quakes would not be as disatrous as need be. Well, I must end as I need to get someplace and still have to get ready. In Christ, Linda

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