Transcription - Howell

Marlowe Howell Jacob Henry 10/30/08 I: And, as a formality, I have to read this to get your consent. Um, it says: We are gathering data that is important in helping to understand the barriers to immigrant incorporation into the triad. This is a research study. Research studies include only people who choose to take part. You are being asked to voluntarily take part in this study in order to share your awareness and understanding of immigrants. This interview will be recorded. The recording will be used for research purposes only. It will be destroyed after a transcript is made. No identifying information will be associated with the transcript in order to protect your identity. You are free to refuse to participate or to withdraw your consent to participate in this research at any time without penalty or prejudice. Your participation is entirely voluntary. You may wish to quote…we may wish to quote from this interview either in reports, presentations, or articles resulting from this work. Your identity will be protected, and a pseudonym or an alias will be used in place of your real name. Do you agree to allow me to quote from this interview? R: I do. I: Ok. Ok, to start off with we’re going to do some background information about you. Um, will you tell me about yourself? R: I, ah, taught French for seven years. I: mhmm.. R: Um, in Guilford county. I: mhmm.. R: And, ah, or eight years actually. Um, spent a year as an assistant principle. Ah, in the Spanish immersion school… I:…mhmm… R:…here in Guilford County before this opportunity became available. I’ve been the principle here now for two years. This is my second year. I: mhmm.. R: Um, and I’ve always been interested in, ah, especially refugee issues, but immigrant issues in general. Um, spent a lot of time traveling over seas. So, I have always had a ah special connection with the population that we serve here. I: mhmm…. So, how old are you now?

R: Thirty-two I: Ok, and where are you from originally… R:…Originally from just outside of Detroit, Michigan. So, I’ve been here for ten years. I: Ok, and, oh ok, so ten years. Umm, are you an immigrant yourself? R: No, I was born in the United States. But, um, spent, grew up about thirty minutes from Canada. I: mhmm… R: So, spent a lot of time interacting with French speakers from Canada. I: And you don’t have anybody in your family who is an immigrant? R: No. I: Ok, um, the next section is experiences with migrants or working with migrants. You already covered some of that. Um, in what ways do you work with immigration or migrants. R: Currently, (laughs) as the Principle of this school. Um, just migrants? Or immigrants?… I:…mmm, for this, uh, I suppose for this research… R: Yeah, approximately, yea, ah, the exact numbers I don’t know. I would say around a third of our students, um, are um migrant students. A majority are refugees, but um, so, you know we, eh, on a daily basis interact with them or their families. Ah, at all phases of ah… I: mhmm… R:…of their school transition. Um, obviously we have a strong focus on curriculum language with them, but we do a lot of work with families and connecting them to healthcare services, ah, finding work for ‘em. Ah… I: the families… R: …yeah, social services, getting them connected to whatever services are available. From food stamps to job finding and job training programs. So, um, it’s more than just interacting with the students in the building.

I: Yeah, ok well, we’ll probably come back to that too, about the families. R: sure. I: Um, what about the other two thirds? R: The majority of our students are refugees. I would say about two thirds are, um, you know, we also have some, a small population of, that are um, I guess we just call them traditional immigrants that come um…. I: ..like second generation? R: Yeah, well they, it’s more or less, ah, they are highly educated business folks from their country, and they come here because, ah, they’re, they may have worked for a subsidiary in their, like Pakistan… I:…uhuh… R:… and they have been offered a position in the United States. So, it’s a guaranteed job that they’re coming to… I:…right… R:…whereas, our migrant families are, are, coming looking for work. So, we have, oh, ah, probably less, I would say less then ten students total fit that category. I: And those are adults? R: Ah, through here, yeah, I think, I mean in our school… I: …right… R: …we’re talking as students, their parents come. A couple of them are Romanian, a couple Russian, uh, many probably 4,5, or 6 Pakistani that fall in that category… I:…mhmm… R:…and the whole rest of our population are refugees from um, Asia, Burma, Bhutan, Vietnam, Noniarts from Vietnam, Africa, the Congo, Sierra Leon, Sudan… I:…mhmm… R:…ah Burundi. Ah, so, and then we have a (coughs) growing population of Iraqi refugees that are increasingly becoming a large population, and will continue to be as we look at our numb…our projected numbers…

I:…mhmm… R: the Iraqis are the next big group… I: …mhmm… R: That will be coming here, so, we’re gearing up for them (grinning). I: That sounds exciting! Um, Did you mention how long you’ve done this? How long have you been working… R:…In this school… I: yes. R:…This is only our second year of existence so, um, this is only my second year. One more complete year in about three months. I: right. R: It’s relatively new. I: And what made you decide to do this? R: Um (pause), the school system, some in the school system have been pushing for a school like this for several years. Um (pause), what made me personally do it… I: …mhmm… R: Um, is I just um, for one ah, I see the need for a school like this and uh, I think this is one of our neediest populations in, within the school system, because you have students that don’t know the language, and which is I think is a secondary barrier of the first barrier is ah, the fact that they come with tremendous academic gaps. I: uhuh R: Our migrants and our refugees have um, had, uh, an interrupted education or no education at all. I: mhmm R: So, it’s not uncommon to have a High School student sixteen years old whose never added or subtracted. Let alone learned how to read or write… I:…right…

R:…in their native language, and you add to that they don’t know the language…putting them into a traditional school just doesn’t work. I: No, it can’t. R: And, the fact that so many of them have dealt with trauma. Whether you’re a migrant from Central or South America, or Mexico. I: mhmm. R: Or you’re a refugee (pause), your traumas is different, but there are similarities. You know, the majority of our migrants are coming from a highly impoverished background. They’ve dealt with separation and loss because of, maybe one of their parents have come here and have been here for a couple of years and they’ve been living without them and now they’ve had to move and relearn that family structure… I:…ok…. R: Then you have refugees who have fled war, experienced murder, experienced torture, been kidnapped, um and ah, been living in a camp, a refugee camp. All sorts of uh, trauma basically, um some of it very severe, and some not quite so severe. I: mhmm. R: As far as all the emotional and social baggage they bring, you have this tremendous academic gap and you don’t speak the language, and you’re expected to go into a ninth grade classroom, and seat at the same rank as your typical ninth grader American kid. (Coughs) And it’s impossible. I: Yeah. R: So, an opportunity to work with this population, um, I couldn’t turn down. I: It sounds interesting. Ah, ok, lets see, and then you touched on this, but what other things have you done with immigrants again? R: Just as being a French teacher um, in the county, and being the only French speaker in the school. I: mhmm R: Before these students would just come directly into schools, and so um, the traditional schools would struggle to help enroll them, get them into the right classes, uh, find out information about them. Um, so I would always be pulled to be used as an interpreter and I would develop relationships with the families. So, outside of school, I would work with families, uh, helping them find work, helping them and get their telephones turned

on, pay their light bill. Things like that, that, the normal things that you and I do on a daily basis, they’ve never had to do. Just working with them, formally teaching them. I: mhmm… R: So… I:… yeah, I struggle with that kind of stuff. R: (laughs) I: Ahh, you also sort of touched on this earlier, about the different types of ethnicities of the students. What about the teachers here? What are ah, what is the ethnic make-up of your organization, and, well, we’ll start there? R: (coughs) It is important for us to have a staff that at least, that reflected to some degree the student body we would have. Um, the reality is we’re not gonna be able to have staff members that represent each of the countries our kids come from. Cause we have kids from 35 different countries. I: Ok. R: Umm, (pause) but at least we have a staff member here from every continent. I: mhmm. R: So, when every child walks through the door here there’s somebody on our staff that looks like them, that’s from a similar region to them, that they can immediately have a connection with, on some, even if it’s a superficial level. I: Right. R: Um, so, we, we have about half of our teachers are international that can bring the perspective of being a newcomer themselves cause they’ve just come into the country last year or this year, and then we have the other half of our staff that are American teachers, have been in the American system for, you know, at least ten years. I: mhmm. R: Um, and can provide the perspective of this is what you’re gonna face when you leave this environment. So, we feel like there is a good balance of both and it makes for a great dialog during staff, ah development trainings, ah, staff meetings, trying to determine what do our kids really really need. I: mhmm.

R: Um, ah you have this diversity of ideas and experiences ah and so on. I: Is there ever any sort of like big complications whenever you have a, a student from one place and you don’t have somebody to put that representation… R: …well… I: that that one person needs? R: Not really, um, the bigger, the bigger complication is ah, not really. You know, and I’ll be honest. I don’t know that it’s really, ah, this would be a good question that I need to ask our kids that have left here and gone into the traditional setting, which I’ll be going out and doing interviews with them over the next couple months. I don’t know how much of an impact it really made on the kids. I’d like to know from their perspective. I: mhmm. R: If it really mattered. I: yeah. R: That we had someone here ah, from Asia… I:…right… R: Uh, because what really spoke to the kids was the dedication, the concern that our teachers have. That I heard all the time. I: Right. R: I’ve never had teachers love me so much. I’ve never had teachers care so much. The teachers here are wonderful. Nobody said, it was nice to walk in and see that you had a teacher here from South Africa. I: yeah. R: You know? Um, we still feel like it’s an important one even if it is a superficial connection. I: Right. R: Um, but, yeah, ah, it’s, ah, I guess what means the most is the relationship that you form with the kids. That’s really what they’re taking away.

I: Sure, sure, ok, moving on. You’ve already told me some about the nationalities of the children that you work with. What are their major concerns or issues? R: Um, (stutter, sigh) it depends. It depends on ah (pause). It depends on where they’re from and what their background is really, but just to make generalizations, their biggest concern is what’s it gonna be like when I’m thrust into that traditional setting. (Coughs) Am I gonna be made fun of? Um, am I gonna be smart enough? I: mhmm. R: Am I gonna have the language, I’m very concerned that the teachers are gonna talk fast, the kids are gonna be mean. Um, really not a whole lot different if you talked to a middle school kid. An American middle school student that is just about to transition into an American High School. Which really surprised me last year. I thought there would be all these other issues, but it, ah, really boiled down to the social things. Am I gonna be accepted? Are the teachers gonna care about me are they gonna help me? Uh, they even go so far as to be afraid they were going to be stuffed into a locker, like American kids are afraid of being, but you know. Are kids gonna wanna fight me? Is it safe in that environment? Um, you know, that’s, that’s on one end and on the other end the issues that our kids face are complex. Um, they are as individual as the students themselves. I can just share with you some examples. I: Sure. R: But, um, you know sometimes the way that resettlement occurs is only a, a portion of the family can come at one time. I: right. R: And once they come and they can establish financial stability, which is almost an impossible ceiling to have to hit, and then the rest of the family is welcome to come. Well, it was October last year, we had been in school for two months, and I had a brother and a sister in here and they were crying and we were trying to figure out what was going on. And the issue was dad was still back in the camp in Africa, and they were here with mom, mom was struggling to find work. Um, so they were concerned that they weren’t going to have money to pay the bills. Um, they were concerned that they weren’t going to have enough money to save to bring dad over. They could only talk to dad once a month because that’s all they could get through on the phone. That’s all that they could afford. I:..mhmm… R: …They hadn’t spoken to him in three weeks. And by the way a lot of times the camps are extremely dangerous and I don’t even know if he’s still alive, because there was a big, I think the week before I read on the internet, ah, there was a big uprising within that camp in Tanzania and they were concern about that. And so they’re dealing with all of

that sitting there in the office, and then they are suppose to get up and leave, and go crack their textbook and learn… I: right… R:...it’s not going to happen. And they’re not the only ones. They are all dealing with this. They’ve all been in a (pause) their, their, they’ve been removed from that survival atmosphere of being in a camp, so a refugee camp around the wrong things and now they’re safe, and because they’re in a safe environment for the first time they are starting to deal with a lot of that trauma they dealt with because you’re in survival mode in the camp. You’re not thinking about, oh I’ve dealt with so much emotional trauma I need to get this out. I need to attack it. You’re just surviving in your now, but when you come here and your defenses go down. All of a sudden you have all these mental issues, um, that you’re dealing with. So, you would see kids for a month or two just gliding along learning as happy as can be and all of a sudden they hit a wall. Something happens and these issues from their past start coming up. Just a ton of mental health issues um (caught) unfortunately the language barrier gets in the way of because they can’t express them. Not unless you speak their dialect, whatever their language is. Thankfully these two spoke French so we were able to communicate together, but I often wonder how many of our kids are in their rooms right now trying to deal with issues that we don’t have an interpreter for their particular dialect for to really go into depth. I: Sure… R: So, just those issues, and it’s not a good economy right now so families aren’t finding jobs. Yeah, they come here thinking that, in the words of one student, before I came here to America I thought I was coming to heaven… I:..mhmm.. R:…and it’s not heaven… I:…hmm-mmm… R: Because they come, they live in the worst um, highly impoverished areas of town, um, because they don’t have any money. They think they see, they hear these stories of America, and everyone has a car and everyone is rich, and they get here and it’s tough. Now whereas their parents may have been a high, highly paid, highly respected professional in their home country. Um, and they come here and they have to start from scratch and they’re washing dishes. And that’s a blow to their self-esteem. So, (laugh) the issues go on and on (laugh). I: Yeah, so, we’ll come, and we’ll come back to some of that stuff too, so. Um, lets see, (pause). This kind of, this kind of goes with the last question. What are the differing needs of immigrants based on their country of origin?

R: Yeah, um, well it depends, ah, African students generally have dealt with a whole lot more violence, um, and a lot less security in the camp that they were in. They also have, they’re kind of a mixed background in their level of education. Some have had a decent background. Some have had none, uh, but regardless they’re, the conditions at their camp are the worst in my estimation. The worst in their stories and they’re the ones that, it appears as if, in my conversations with students that, they’re the ones to only come with part of their family. I: mhmm. R: Burmese, um, (cough) similar to the Africans. Um, not, not, security is not quite the issue that it is in the African camps, but it’s still an issue. Um, they’ve, they have dealt with some horrible trauma at the hands of the government. Ah, government officials coming into their village, ah, shooting all the elders, burning the village. I’ve heard that story several times from students. Um, and, um, so (pause), you know they’re, they may be here without a single parent because their father or their mother was abd…kidnapped, tortured, or killed, and hardly any ever education at all. The gaps with our Burmese students are depressing. I:…for the children or the parents? R:… Both, ah both, parents mostly due to the fact that they were farmers, you know? Um, they were pre-literate and they would have been anyway there’s this sort of um, their role in the community, but the kids, the camps, some camps are too child uneducated. Our Bhutanese refugees that were in camps in Nepal, um, much different situation. Howah, relatively speaking, very strong academic background, and I say relatively speaking because they’re strong compared to our African and our Burmese, still weak compared to what an American child would have. Um, but they have a level of proficiency in English. They can read and write ok in English, but they still have tremendous gaps in math and they are still a seventh grader reading at a first grade level. I: mhmm… R: The Iraqi, uh, they are unique. The difference between the Iraqis is that every other group generally has been in a refugee camp for a long period of time before coming here. I: mhmm.. R: So, they kind of have some what of a buffer period between the heavy traumatic experience, living in the camp, relative, not not great security, but um, not as bad as it was in their country when they were being persecuted, and then they’re here. The Iraqis that are coming directly out of Tochna, they’ve had a buffer period, there are no refugee camps in the least. So, they’re fleeing Iraq into Jordan and Syria, um, whol, ah, hiding out with friends, family members, until they can get approval to come here. Um, one in five Iraqis have either seen or, ah, been, ah, have known someone killed. Ah, have been

kidnapped or seen someone get kidnapped, have been tortured or know someone who has been tortured. Um, and, they’ve had no time to deal with that. I: yeah… R: So, they’re coming directly here and there are all kinds of none healthy issues associated with that. The other thing about the Iraqis is that they are um, relatively affluent, were relatively affluent in their home country. So, they had a, well paying jobs, highly respected jobs. Me, I’ve actually been working as a part of a coalition with Armed Forces as an interpreter or as a liaison (clears throat). They’re Doctors, they’re engineers and they’re brought here, like I mentioned before, none of those degrees mean a thing here. I: mhmm… R: None of their, ah, education transfers. So, if you’re an engineer in Iraq so what? You’re now a dishwasher in the United States. And when your used to a wealthy life of affluence, and you’re told you’re going to have to survive on minimum wage and government subsidized housing, and be surrounded by crime, they’re saying no thanks. I: yeah. R: So, they’re struggling with close connection to trauma, wake-up call, my life of affluence is over. And by the way, a lot of these people in this country don’t like me, because I’m Muslim. And so… I: right. R: Various layers of issues that they deal with. (Laughs) Then the migrants some more issues than Iraqis that they deal with are, you know, persecution in the community, fear, um, am I gonna get deported? My parents can’t find work, but by golly life is better here than where ever we came from. So, those are the layers. I: (nervous laughter) Seems like a lot. Um, we just did, ok, what are the most difficult issues you face working with immigrants? R: Hmm, yeah, I, I think it’s just knowing, it’s knowing how to help. Um, it’s very difficult. Our students have very sad stories, and ah, have dealt with a ton of junk, but um, they don’t need to be pitied. They don’t, they don’t need us to feel sorry. They need us to believe in them, and ah, to give them hope, and, and, um help them to become selfsufficient. I think there’s a major major risk in working with immigrants and refugees thinking that it’s about you, because it makes you feel good, ah, it builds you up. You know, isn’t that nice helping these poor people, and you have to constantly combat against that because that’s condescending and it’s demeaning, and the kids deserve better. I: mhmm.

R: So our biggest challenge, my biggest challenge personally is um, is a challenging them, and ah being tough on them. And um making sure that when they leave, the time they have here… I: mhmm.. R: I’ve done all that I can, and as a staff we’ve done all we can. That when they walk out this door they won’t need us anymore. That they will be able to advocate for themselves. That they’ll know where to go to get services that they need. They will know what it takes to graduate. They will know the career path that’s best for them, and that’s tough. You just want to bring ‘em in here, coddle ‘em and love ‘em, and that’s it. But that’s more about you than it’s about them. That’s not what they need. I: mhmm… R: It’s a hard balance. It’s a hard line of work. I: mhmm, yeah, I can imagine, but um, we’ll ah, we’re gonna get into self-sufficiency in a section or two. One more question from this section. Ah, do you collaborate with others on issues regarding immigration… R: Yeah, yeah, we work closely with the Center for New North Carolinians. Um, there are other um, advocacy groups in ah, the community center for Hispano um… I: mhmm.. R: And ah, just um, ahhh, individuals in the community that um, have an interest. Ah, we can’t do it alone, and the refugee agencies that um settle the families. We work very very closely with them, including the health department. There’s a lot of issues that we work with them on so…. I: yeah… Ok, next is ah, services? Umm, what services are there or do you know of specifically for immigrants in Greensboro? R: Not as many as there need to be. Um, that’s where ah, there really is a difference between immigrants and refugees because refugees have access to a whole lot more than immigrants. Refugees are immediately eligible for ah food stamps, ah, Medicaid, uh, so their health and their food issues are done. Anyone, ah, you know, the ah, background of the immigrant, not much is available for them. Um, there, there are agencies like a Casa Guadeloupe… I: mhmm… R: That offer ah direction and connection to ah healthcare, to work, but, uh, you really have to work hard to make those connections. But uh, boy if you’re a refugee from ah Africa or Asia we can get you some help, but if you’re from Central or South America we

really have to work hard at it. So we’ve collaborated with churches, food pantries, um, individuals that we know that own businesses, and wanna find work and need help. *Phone rings I: mhmm… R: sorry, but the refugees have it pretty easy. *Phone rings I: yeah…Ok, um, what are the barriers to you proving services? R: Um, I think it’s just, in general their’s a lack or resources. Even, I talked about our refugees have access… *Phone rings R:…for example, the fact that they need to have immunizations… *Phone rings R:….it might be two months before we get them an appointment scheduled for that because…. *Phone rings R:…the health department’s booked… I: mhmm… R: solid. There just aren’t enough people offering these…. *Phone rings I:…mhmm….Do you need to get that?… R:…resources… I:…ok… *Phone rings R: I told them not to put that through. I: Ok, go ahead.

R: Regarding immigration, I think in general people just don’t want to provide to nonAmericans. I: Why is that? R: I just think that, I just feel like that’s the tied of um public opinion right now. I think that if you discipline a kid generally it just seen in the media regarding immigration. Immigrants are always the first scapegoat. Whenever there’s an economic crisis or a downtime, and I think there’s this negative perception in the community that immigrants are coming, and they’re um, feasting off of our tax dollars, and it’s, it’s, it’s ah, ah not true. I: yeah.. R: It’s just not true. Some people aren’t willing to offer services to immigrants because they have a false perception of why people are here. I: uhuh R: They think that immigrants are taking advantage of us. I: Sure. R: It’s just not true. I: And politicians don’t help. R: No, not a bit. I: Um, the services that are offered, do immigrants typically know of them? R: Ah, no, we do a lot of edu, we do actually a lot ah, we do a night where we bring in all sorts of different agencies from the community from ah. They may not specifically serve immigrants, but they ah, they may serve a general population. But they also provide services to immigrants. And so, we do a night where we bring in, they set up booths and we bring in our families, and ah we expose them to what’s out there. Most, if it wasn’t for a social worker, most of our families wouldn’t know how to apply for ah food stamps, for vouchers for daycare so you can go to work, or ah Medicaid if your qualified. Free and reduced lunch even at school they don’t know they have access to… I: mhmm… R:…until we initiate that with them. So, um, I mean our Hispanics ah, definitely have a better opportunity I think to understand what’s out there because there are more agencies out there that speak their language, and there are networks. Sometimes they get plugged into a network.

I: mhmm… R: Ah, but then there are other times when it’s harder for them because those are groups that the community in general are more fearful of… I:…sure… R:…they close the door on them… I:…sure… R:…and so… I: Um, what do you think can be done to increase services? R: I don’t know. I mean I, quite honestly the fact that we’re a school is a big surprise to me. The fact that they, um this is a huge services that is being provided to these kids so ah… I: …mhmm… R: Ah, I think it was a courageous thing our school board did when they opened this school considering the political climate and the way people think about immigration. Um, but I think, I, I do think this as a great place to showcase. Ah, the value of investing in immigrants and why it’s important too, because they’re here. They’re in our community and they’re gonna enrich our community, they’re not here to leach off of our community… I:…mhmm… R:…you know, ah and a lot to offer, and whenever folks come in this building and see these kids they fall in love with them and it shifts their thinking I think. So more opportunities to highlight the positives of what’s happening with our community, what they actually are contributing, how hard they are working to learn our language (laughs), you know to succeed in our system. Uh, I think that will turn, that will sway us a little bit. I: Sure, um, besides the newcomer school, ah, what services are there specifically for immigrant children? R: It is a uh, you know we have a pre-k program which is know twenty-five percent Spanish speaking. I:..mhmm..

R:…within Guilford County, which is twenty-five percent of the kids, twenty-five percent of our kids in the pre-k program speak Spanish. Um, there’s Head Start, now these are not specifically for immigrants, but they are taking advantage of them. I: mhmm… R: Um, Head Start is another state initiative. I: mhmm, it’s at just regular schools? R: Yeah, (pause) yeah, they, families, if the children qualify for health benefits the parents, if you’re under a certain threshold of income, so, we can often times help assist our families to get a level of insurance for the kids not the mom and dad, so that’s available. Um, essentially a tutoring hotline in Spanish for immigrant families so they can just pick-up the phone, and get homework assistance at night. I: mhmm R: But that’s about it. There are occasionally clinics that will breeze through town, umdental clinics for example, and uh, like Christina Smile will come through and we’ll get a bunch of our students to go to receive dental care. Um, actually we have another one coming up in February, we’re going to be a part, so occasionally you’ll find things like that. I: Yeah, are the clinics based on like health issues, or are they? R: Yeah, I actually have a meeting on November seventeenth to determine what their criteria for allowing students to come… I: mhmm… R:..but both of these organizations that we’re partnering with specifically serve immigrants. They just move throughout the country to different locations, to connect the school systems, identify the kids that need it. I: That’s great. R: Yeah. I: Um, how does being an immigrant child differ from being an adult? R: Um, the kids are, ah, the kids are always a whole lot more adaptable, and ah, they, for one the language issue is so much easier for the kids. They’re going to pick up a language so much more quickly than the adults. Um (clears throat), the adults don’t really have time to get to know the culture like the kids get to in school. The adults are out there surviving.

I: Yeah…. R: Um, they’re out there working and paying their bills. It’s a whole lot more stressful for them cause they, they don’t settle, and to some degree are still in survival mode, but the kids don’t have to be. I: Right. R: They will just get in here, learn the language, learn the culture, interact with their peers (coughs), um, which really upsets the family structure, because as kids, the kids become more and more in power the more and more English they know. Then the roles start changing at home. Now parents become dependent on the kids. The child has to translate an appointment at a bank, school conference the kid has to translate for the parent, and you can just see how this totally messes up the hierarchy at home. I: Yeah. R: You know roles are not well defined, and we see it all the time, and then the family units just breakdown, uh, much more difficult to be an adult than a child. I: So, you don’t think that the survivor role that you’re talking about with the adults outside of school, and the children have a safe haven within the school, but when the children leave don’t they go back to that? R: Yeah, but they have a respite from it. Not necessarily because uh, a lot of ‘em their parents are working and the kids are just at home. I: mhmm… R: They’re not the ones that actually have to go out, and, some of our older students do work, our High School age. I: mhmm.. R: But, you know, they’re at home they got the T.V. on and they’re doin’ their homework. Mom and dad are the ones out there, you know, fighting battle, quote unquote. Um, there still is, I mean that is not to say, I don’t want to paint it as the kids are on easy street, the parents aren’t. I: Yeah. R: But, in comparison, when you consider what the child’s day is like at school compared to the adults day. The child is being taught to adapt to culture, the parent is being thrown to the wolves. And it’s, it’s sink or swim out there. When you go to that job interview, no ones there to help you get through it. No one’s there to help you fill out that application. Whereas here, you’re getting assistance.

I: Right. Um, this is where we go back to the self-sufficiency. Um, should services be focused on immigrant self-sufficiency? R: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, I ah, ah, that’s ah, to me it’s ah. I, I see it as an issue of faith when you don’t work to make. Um, when you look at what it took for these families to get here. This is why we shouldn’t pity them. Actually, they should pity us. When you think about all they’ve been through and what they’ve managed to survive. These are very capable people. I: Yeah… R: Very capable people. They may not have the book smarts or the education that you and I have had, but they have their own ways to survive to overcome great obstacles, great odds to make it to this point. So, when we, when we tell them, or we don’t help them to become self-sufficient, we’re basically telling them, you need me. You can’t do this on your own and we’re telling them you’ve put no faith in them… I: mhmm… R: But in fact you need to be looking at their background and seeing all they’ve overcome and continue to believe in them. If we’re able to do that surely they can make it here. Obviously they need assistance. They need to be taught, but they don’t need me or, or anyone else for a prolonged period of time. They just need to be shown that’s all. So, absolutely, yeah… I:…What kind of barriers to you see to them getting to self-sufficiency? R: A, a lot of the barriers are the people that are helping them that don’t have that attitude. They think they have to do everything for them, and sometimes the barriers are themselves. They just don’t want to (laughs). They want, they want, they want it handed to ‘em. They’ve been through enough, and they want it given to them. And a lot, some of it has to do with fear. The language is an issue. Ah (pause), you know if you’ve never read English before, you’ve never read your native language and you’re from Burma. Burmese is written in a different script than English. Are you really gonna be able to stand on a street corner and, and know which bus to get on? I: mhmm… R: You know, there’s a lot of literacy issues, even something as small as that. Going to the grocery store and shopping is a very overwhelming experience. What, what is all this stuff that I’m buying. I’m used to just buying fresh fruit, fresh vegetables, and meat and going home and cooking it, or, just standing in line and being given a ration of rice. But now I have a choice? I:…yeah…

R:… (coughs) and I don’t know what half the junk is? I:..right… R:…and I don’t have anyone here in my language to explain it to me? But that’s where they have to get pushed, encouraged, and challenged to learn the language, to go to classes, and figure out what all that stuff is. And expect and try, and see what you might learn. I: yeah… R:..so… I: And, ah, not to beat a dead horse, but just to be sure. How do you think agencies should go about promoting self-sufficiency? R: Huh (pause), that’s ah (pause). Well, I mean, one thing that we’ve discovered. I can just give you examples on how we do it here. Um, one lesson that we learned last year is ah, we-e, we helped last year with getting, by getting some of the kids to the doctors. Rather than explaining to families the public transportation system. It’s like this is a bus that can pick you up in front of your house. Get on this bus, here’s the route, and it will take you to this doctor’s office. We tried to find someone to pick them up, and take them themselves. I: mhmm… R: And what that created was this cultured kindness. So, whenever they had a new need they would call us. Any kind of transportation need, whereas, if we would have just sat down and explained to them the bus system then that opens up all kinds of doors to them. Where they can go to many different services, whether it’s doctor, grocery store, or the bank (cough) job interview, training, English classes, ah, so that’s one way. I:..right… R:…its, its teaching, um, with agencies across, uh, courses that aren’t just language based, but community service based and a lot of um will take ‘em out into the community and show ‘em how to do it. Then take ‘em out into the community where you are with them where they had to do the whole thing themselves. You were just there in case something were to happen. Those are the types of things we should be doing. I: Yeah, that makes total sense. (Pause) Um, how long does it take for immigrants and refugees to become self-sufficient in the United States? R: That, you know that, I can’t answer, because I haven’t worked with them long enough, um, in this setting. The um, agencies that I deal with, though, that um, ah, bring folks over know, can talk of stories of families that come over within six months that are

self-sufficient. It really depends on how quickly they can find work. It’s just that sometimes it’s not their fault and sometimes it is. There, there are two big factors they tell us. The first is that how quickly they can find work, keep work, and learning the nine to five. This is the way it is here. Be to work on time. You can’t take days off whenever you want to. And the other is if they have families that are sponsoring them or helping them…. I:…mhmm… R:…how quickly those families let go, and gradually release responsibility. If it’s a family that creates a codependent situation… I:..mhmm… R:…then the refugees will never become self-sufficient. So, it could be six months, it could be 5 years depending on when those paper strings are cut. I: Right (pause), ok, uh, how does documentation play a role in service provision? R: For us it doesn’t. We’re not, ah, in the business of immigration. We’re in the business of education. We don’t ask questions. Um, they, they are required to provide a certain amount of paperwork for enrollment, and as long as they have that, that’s all we need. That’s all we care about. I: Um, in your opinion should agencies have restrictions on the basis of documentation? R: In my personal opinion no (laughs). Yeah, no. I: It creates a lot of problems? R: yeah I: (sigh) Ok, ah, the last section is barriers to incorporation. What do you believe is the hardest part to adjusting to American society? R: (long pause) Gosh (pause), from (pause) the perspective of the majority of our families (pause) language is a huge factor. Um, secondly is learning and being (pause), how do I say it? (Pause) The amount of personal responsibility that’s involved in our culture (coughs) when you’re a, for example, when you’re a refugee and you’ve been living in a camp for fifteen years. The concept of having a checking account, and being responsible for paying your phone bill, your light bill, your water bill (pause), budgeting, working enough hours to fit that budgeting to go to the grocery store to purchase enough items to feed your family for that week. That is so foreign to them. I:..mhmm..

R: Ah, (pause) so whatever you want to call that like the amount of personal responsibility to be self-sufficient. That’s a tough one. So, now for immigrants I think it’s more language and acceptance by the community. I: What is being done around, um, here for the language barriers? R: Within our school?… I:..Well, not with, not necessarily within the school, but in the, in the, community. R: There is a um, we actually offer classes for our parents on Saturdays. There are several schools who do within the Guilford county school system. Um, there is a school for new arrivals. It’s at Temple Emmanuel Baptist Church I think. I:..mhmm… R:…that teaches English. There’s a public library that focuses heavily on ESL strategies for adults. GTCC offers English courses for free. I: mhmm. R: UNCG actually has a, offers English courses, so, it’s out there. It’s available, but it’s hard when you’re trying to work, and put food on the table, and then you have to go to class on top of that? And when are you gonna spend time with your kids? I:…yeah… R: So, I, I understand the challenge for our parents. I: Does the Newcomer school offer interpreters? R: Yeah (pause), yeah, we have our (pause) most of our main languages are Arabic, Maynard, different Maynard languages, French, Spanish, and Burmese (pause) so…. I: Do you think Greensboro is a culturally diverse place? R: Very much so. Though people don’t know it. I:…yeah… R: Because must of our, um, immigrant populations live in pockets that are unseen by the majority of our, our community. And whenever people come here, and they walk in the school they go I had no idea. They think they’re going to walk in and find a hundred percent of our kids Mexican. I: mhmm…

R:…cause they’re just ignorant to what we really have. They see thirty-five different countries, just, can’t believe it. And so… I: Yeah, I didn’t, I mean I was surprised when I learned, um, in your opinion does the increasing number of immigrants in Greensboro present any problems? R: I haven’t noticed any. Um, I don’t think so. I think it’s great. I, I think they have so much to offer our community. I really don’t see problems. I: Ok, coming, we’re a, we’re getting close. Um, what are some of the ways the Newcomer School has helped the community become more aware of immigrants? R: You know I think just our existence and being here and like I talked about. The amount of folks that come in, and um, every major news station have come in here to do a story. The News and Record did a couple of stories. Um, just that type of exposure and getting the word out about the diversity that we have. Um, I think it’s done a whole lot. But, we’ve always talked about in Guilford County schools having this many languages spoken, you know, but to come here and see it says a whole lot. We’ve also been and we’ve done performances at Guilford College and invited the community to see that. We had a huge culture night here where we explain all of our different cultures and invited the community to see that. Um, so we’re doing our best. I: I noticed on your website too that you guys have a garden. And you…. R:…oh, yeah, yeah, that’s right… I:…you sell the vegetables is that…you mentioned earlier that some of the children have parents that are farmers. Is that to help them kind of help them assimilate into our society?.. R:…sure, sure…..yeah they don’t have green space in their apartment so they can’t garden at home so they do it here… I:…So, do parents come and participate too? R: Some do. We’re writing a grant this year to get, um, ah, to hire transportation to bring families. Most of the families don’t have cars… I:…yeah… R:…and the public bus does not come around here. So, we want more of that next year or this year. I: It looks good to me. I’d definitely buy your vegetables. R: (laughs) thank you.

I: Um, how successful have you been here at the Newcomer school? R: So far, you know it’s only been a year, but so far we think we’re doing ok. We definitely have a lot of growth. There’s no model for us to follow. So, we’re creating this as we go and um, you know, we learned a lot last year. And we um, we made a lot of changes this year, and we did see a ton of growth language wise and in the area of selfefficacy for our kids. Uh, I feel very good about the direction we’re taking. I think that there is more that we need to do to challenge our kids more academically than we did last year… I:..mhmm… R: we’ll do more literacy, help them become readers, um, and we need to do more in the area of self-sufficiency, pushing them and believing in them, and if we can accomplish that this year. I think we’ll be on a really good path. I: And that’s kind of how you measure your success and failures? R: Yeah, um, we’ll know more, we’re actually sending teams into our schools that our kids have transitioned into. I: mhmm. R: And we’re interviewing students, we’re interviewing teachers, and that’s where we’re gonna, we’re gonna take that feedback, and we’re gonna use it to form our program. You know, what could we have done better? What did we do well? What do you wish you would have known before you went into this traditional setting? So, here we’re looking at regular indicators like growth on tests and assessments, but I, I wanna hear from the stories from the kids. I: So, follow-ups.. R: Yeah, yeah, so trying to balance both. Cause we gotta have, we gotta grow them academically… I:…mhmm… R:…you have to look at those measures, but we also have to look at their feedback. I: Sure, I mean you’re a school. Um, in your opinion how do most people feel about the foreign born population? R: Well, you know (clears throat) I, my, my perspective on that is changing, because the more and more community members..I, I do a lot of outside speaking in the community about the school, and the more and more folks that I speak to (pause) um, (stutters) they’re giving me a very positive reception. They’re very intrigued by our school, by

what we’re trying to do. So, I, I, I’m a little more optimistic than say a year and a half ago. I was very concerned when we first opened. I was bracing for backlash in the community for um, you know, people saying why are you opening a school for a bunch of illegals? That never happened… I: really… R:…not one ounce of negative feedback… I:..that’s crazy… R:…from anyone. The only person that expressed any concern about our school was a Latino advocate. And his only concern was why are you segregating these kids, and when he came and visited our school and saw what we were doing, trying to get them ready for success…it wasn’t, it’s not that we don’t want these kids in the regular setting. It’s just that we want to get them ready for it, and when he came here and saw that he said ok that’s it. I support your program. I: Great! That’s really surprising. So, they’re pretty open right? R: Yeah, I’d say, so far. (coughs) I: Um, what are the major differences between the large cities in the US as compared to the triad area in their reception of migrants? R: Um, you know, I have visited some other schools like in New York City for example. A ton more services available for the kids. They have doctors that will come into the schools and give the kids shots, uh, there are dental clinics within the school. They just have ah, ah, better support. People can get on the subway and go to the doctor’s office, or go to work, in the evenings our kids can’t do that. So, they just, a whole lot more services available in bigger cities, living in the city. I: What do you think the difference is? R: I just think that the population in those areas are more diverse than our, you know when I talk about diversity in Greensboro (pause). Greensboro’s mostly black and white. There is a pocket of a bunch of different nationalities, but when we talk about diversity in a big city like New York or Chicago you’re taking about high populations of these different ethnic groups. Where it’s not like you have forty percent white forty percent black, and then everyone else, these other forty nationalities are divided up in that twenty percent. You have big advocate groups for Dominicans. I: mhmm… R: Big advocate groups for Haitians that live in the city. So they have voice and they can influence public policy. We don’t have that here.

I: Right.. R: Not yet. I: You think it’s coming? R: I think the Hispanic community is growing and becoming more and more vocal, but for our refugees. I don’t think it will ever happen, because they get two years of growth, the Burmese, and then the Burmese program cuts off and a different group is brought in. I: mhmm.. R: So, I don’t think so. I: Um, are immigrants ever discriminated against? R: Absolutely (pause) I: Ah, in what ways? R: Yeah, the small to the big. I think ah, (pause) there’s definitely like the um (pause) verbal abuse that they’ll face in school. You know I used to see it all the time. I: Within this school? R: Out in the regular system. I: sure, sure.. R: Kids being made fun of, kids that speak with an accent, kids being made fun of because they’re Mexican, or because they’re Cuban, or kids being made fun of because they’re Asian. Um, ah, then I think that um ah, in the public…. * call comes in on the walkie talkie R:…certainly people are being denied work because of their ethnicity. I need to take this just in case. I: ok. R: yes. *recorder stopped and then started

R: But I think that there are job issues. (Coughs) We see it, it’s very hard for our families to find work. Um, ah, my estimation, we, we know of situations, let’s put it this way, where families um, parents of our kids have gone to work, and other employees… I:…mhmm… R:…have made up a story about them and they were fired. Um, or other employees did something to make our parents think that they could do it to set them up to get fired. Just junk like that. It’s like High school for adults. It’s ridiculous, it’s like these adults have never gotten over their bully in their High school, and are even bully in the work place to the point that our parents are losing their jobs. I: yeah.. R: That’s just ridiculous so… I: Do you see like maybe one group having more discrimination than another? R: No, I mean we have noticed that there is a higher…that it happens more with our, especially with our Sudanese families. I don’t know why, but um, they are darker in terms of color… I:…mhmm… R: ..uh, that may have something to do with it. You know um (yawns), we don’t know of many stories like that with any of our Hispanic families. It’s mostly our refugees that are experiencing that, but I’m sure it’s happening. I: Just the discrimination, or more of the bullying? R: Both, you know, we just um, our Hispanic families are a little more ah, protective of what they share with us… I:..mhmm… R: The students are, refugees open up more. So, um, I’m sure it’s happening, but if it’s happening to our refugees it’s happening to them too. I: With them, do you think that there is a particular group that’s doing the discriminating? R: Oh, it’s definitely white. I mean, yeah, yeah, it’s definitely white. Mostly white males… I:..mhmm…

R: yeah. I: And, and how big of a problem is this? R: Um, it’s not huge, but it’s big enough that it might be four or five families that we have to help find new work, because ah, someone was ah, someone was acting foolish. You know. I: yeah R: Ah, so it’s not like all of our families are experiencing it, but, but ah, you know we, we also know of apartment complexes that have taken advantage of our families. (Coughs) But it’s because they don’t know the language, don’t understand the procedures that we’ve had to intervene. I:..mhmm.. R: You know, it could be something as small as a, well not small, but something like theirs roaches in the apartment and the apartment complex won’t take care of it because they know the family can’t advocate for themselves. We show up and advocate on behalf of them. Next, thing you know there is an exterminator. All the way to financial, taking advantage of them financially. Where we’ve had to do claims with the housing authority… I:…mhmm… R:…for families that have been taken advantage of… I:..yeah… R: So, it’s happened. I: Ok, well, that’s all my questions, uh, is there anything you would like to include on this topic? R:…I think we got it all. I: Ok, you did a great job. Ok, we’re gonna stop that.