Croy Transcription

Interview of Mike Croy. Conducted by Kimberly Haysom and Heather Johnson KH:

Today is May 18, 2009 and my name is Kimberly Haysom and this is Mr. Michael Croy. Correct?

MC:

That is correct.

KH:

And this is Heather Johnson. Um…could you state your full name, date of birth and current city of residence please.

MC:

Okay. Michael Edward Croy, January 17, 1948 and currently reside and have for 19 years in Grand Terrace, California.

KH:

Um…before we started the interview did you read the consent form and Do you agree with us tape recording and recording the interview?

MC:

Yes I do and I have no problem with you. With this interview.

KH:

Thank you. Can you tell me how you started to work for Santa Fe?

MC:

Well I guess it goes back to when I was a toddler. I loved trains as a little boy and I just had this premonition that this was gonna happen. I was gonna go to work for the railroad. So as a senior in high school um… in the city of Chicago with the graduating class of every high school coming up in mid June I figured I’d try to get a jump on the gun and see what business offers and what job opportunities were out there and I had been filling out applications from factories and plants and stores all day long I decided to swing by the Santa Fe Railroad. Which is pretty obscure to get too. You have to take a private road to get into the railroad yard and I walked up to the tower and I saw a man with a suit on and I and he asked me what I was up there for and I said I would like to apply for a job and he said what as and I didn’t know what to respond to him and so the first thing that came to my mind was switch man. So he says go down to the girl in the office down stairs. So I went down there and she gave me an application uh… and it was about 30 minutes later she comes back and she says, “well here’s your physical papers now you go see this doctor and you go see an eye doctor and you go see this other doctor and then uh bring them back here and then you take 2 student trips and take a trip with the switch crew to learn the hand signals and everything. One on day shift, one on afternoon shift, and one on night shift and then you’re hired as a full fledged employee.”

KH:

How long did that take from the application process to being hired?

MC:

Uh…I just basically was hired on the spot.

KH:

Really.

MC:

Right after I went through the requirements of the physical and everything uh.. and did the student trips then I was actually hired as a full time paid employee and my seniority date was my first working day on the railroad was June 3rd of 1966 and I had to take the day off to attend my graduation on June 6th of 1966.

KH:

Really (laughter)

MC:

And I had just started this wonderful job working on that I grew up trains my whole life and I model trains now (inaudible) now that (inaudible) so I was, I was happy.

KH:

That’s Kind of funny. How long did you work for Santa Fe?

MC:

37 years but that includes four years military which counted as time with the railroad.

KH:

(Inaudible) a little bit. When did you go to the Vietnam War? I don’t remember.

MC:

I went into the Marine Corps in December of 1967 and was honorably discharged in December of 1971.

KH:

And then you got to come back with your seniority at Santa Fe.

MC:

All my seniority and vacation rights and (Inaudible)

KH:

Really?

MC:

Well that’s the law

KH:

It is?

MC:

Yah

KH:

Well I didn’t know that. You’re teaching me something.

MC:

I mean if you leave you…you the veterans just because you are a veteran they have to give you your job back.

KH:

Oh I didn’t know that. Okay what was the work environment like um when you were at Santa Fe? Lets say the beginning what was it like? Were you (inaudible) managers?

MC:

Uh…yeah I’ll tell you it was a lot more fun to work for the railroad in those days and um I can remember some good times and I can remember some bad times. The good times were for me were to be honest with you were (inaudible) times any way and when you live in a city that is the railroad capital of the word there was 29 different railroads in the city and we would go out we might take cars over to one railroad in one part of the city one day and then cars over in some other city the next day another part of the city the next day. And working on a switch crew there were like 46 different switch engines working around the clock. So you were every job was different and so you never did the same thing twice and so everything was kept up new and exciting and enjoyable. But some of the sad parts I remember or the bad parts I remember was the old timers they (Inaudible) the young guys on the railroad. They didn’t want us there and it came to a matter of money cuz if they didn’t have any guys on the if they didn’t’ have all the guys on the extra board then they would have to start calling the regulars guys on the day job they would have to work over time to make up the slack. So I can remember a lot of times engineers and switchmen and conductors saying why do you want to be on the railroad there’s no future here. What do you want to be here for you know. (inaudible) It was there own selfishness because if I wasn’t there or the other 8 or 9 guys that were hired that year with me weren’t there that would mean they would get their days off they would work their days off so I gotta back track a little bit. When I started working on the railroad you could work 16 hours. That was the deal. You could work 16 be off 8, work 16 be off 8, work 16 be off. There was more work then you could possibly do. So in I believe the maybe in the early 70’s they cut it from 16 to 14 hours and then eventually they cut it from 14 to the 12 which it is now. But that was uh 16 hours a day was nothing. You know. You work 16 be off go home. That wasn’t 8 hours of sleep your just off 8 hours in one shift for the night and then you’d come back.

KH:

Really.

MC:

And of course the first 8 hours was (inaudible) time and the second you got time and a half so

KH:

Well that’s good

MC:

So these guys were making a lot of money and they didn’t want the young guys coming in there and taking there money out of the pot. So they tried to drive you off the railroad.

KH:

Were did you start working? In what city?

MC:

Chicago, Illinois

KH:

Chicago. When did you come to southern California?

MC:

In 1991. May of 1991. (Inaudible) 1991. And that was because I had worked from the ground as switchman up the ladder a little bit and got several promotions and finally they were. I had mentioned to a vicepresident that I’d be interested in a job out in California and that very night he called me at home and said are you serious and I said to all the kids and my wife this vice-president wants to know if I am serious about relocating to southern California and all (inaudible) said yeah because I mean they had gone back so many times on the train and they knew grandma and all my wife’s family out there in California. So this was where they wanted to be. So they never looked back. Oh they shed a tear the day we left because they had to leave their boyfriends but. (Laughter)

KH:

(Laughter)

MC:

I mean there was more than one fish in the sea and one monkey don’t stop no show right.

KH:

(Laughter) Oh you’re so funny. (Laughter)

MC:

Where did you work in California? Your first job out here?

MC:

In San Bernardino

KH:

In San Bernardino

MC:

(inaudible) railroad yard in San Bernardino. And that was I came out here and I think one of the reasons they were interested in having me out here in California was the long term plan was to tear down all of the shops and all of those facilities

KH:

Oh

MC:

And build that piggyback facility down there that (inaudible) facility

KH:

Okay

MC:

And I had. I had worked for years in the (inaudible) business in the (Inaudible) facility in Chicago and I had a lot of experience in that field of piggyback (inaudible). So I think they wanted somebody here from the ground who is going to see this whole operation and all of the construction of the big construction and so I was here for all of that.

KH:

When did that start? Tearing down the shops?

MC:

Uh…I would think I was here maybe a year and a half maybe 2 years. I would think around 1993. You may have interviewed some other people that can probably confirm the dates. But I was here in 91 and I wasn’t here that much that long before they started to uh make way for the inter (inaudible) facility and then they started tearing down the shops.

KH:

Was there a lot of uproar when the shops were torn down?

MC:

Uh… I remember a lot of guys were not happy that they were leaving and I was sad to see some of the guys go that I had just met in the short time I had been there, I had befriended, that were all picking up and going. I mean it yeah it was uh… it was families being uprooted to go over to Topeka, Kansas.

KH:

Oh I didn’t know that.

MC:

Well they gave them options.

KH:

Right, right but I didn’t know…

MC:

You know…

KH:

They had those options

MC:

Yeah they could go to Topeka or they could take a buy out package or what ever they wanted to do you know. But uh… all the history that came down with all of them shops coming down that had been there for a hundred years you know and the only thing that remains is the smoke stack now

KH:

Right. What were your different job titles? Like what were your titles? Like you went from switchman…

MC:

Yeah I was a switchman on the ground. I worked with another guy and with a switch crew. And with a switch crew you have a foreman, 2 helpers and of course you have an engineer and sometimes you had a fireman. They still had firemen in them days. Those the firemen are all gone now I mean they don’t uh… promote locomotive engineers the way they did in the old days. That was a hold over from the steam locomotives when they needed an engineer and a fireman both to run a steam locomotive. Well when they transformed over into diesel locomotives there was really no need to have a fireman on the job. So Actually the fireman then were just engineers in training but eventually as time went on they wound up in 1964 buying out a bunch of firemen. Severing them and giving them a severance package. A good friend of mine is one of those. He went on to the sheriff’s department.

KH:

Really

MC:

But the Railroad cut too deeply and then all the older locomotive engineers from the steam engine days started retiring and that left a big void for qualified locomotive engineers. So they wound up having to call back some of them guys that they had just paid off and bring them back to work because they needed the locomotive engineers.

KH:

Really.

MC:

Yeah they just cut a little bit too deep.

KH:

Okay. You were a switchman on the ground.

MC:

Then uh after being a switchman then you got enough feel for the yard and enough experience you could take a foreman’s position.

KH:

Okay

MC:

Where you were the boss on the switch job.

KH:

Okay

MC:

Then I did that for a few years then I really enjoyed that I am really kind of a go getter um…and around 1976 um..75, 76 there was a recession on the railroad like there is today only it is not (inaudible) but I had 9 ½ years seniority on the railroad and I had 2 children and I had one more coming and they had cut back so far because of the recession I could only work 2 days a week.

KH:

Wow.

MC:

So I had to go find something quick to do to supplement the income. So my wife was doing stuff like tutoring and teaching piano and I had a friend of mine who offered me a job driving a truck that I could do a couple of days a week. So that supplemented my income and of course I had a friend who was younger than me on the seniority board who was working as a yard master up in the tower. And as an (inaudible) and he never missed a days work. And here it is 18, 20 below zero outside and I’m out here and I’m only working 2 days a week and I have got a family to raise and that (inaudible) look at the posted bulletin that they were in search of some uh… yard master trainees. I went ahead and of course I got the opinions of my supervisors that I had on the property and (Inaudible) you’d make a good one. So I went and I put my name in went through the interview process and I was selected to be in a training program as a yard master up

in the tower. And um you have to work something like 60 days up there before you become qualified that’s their criteria you half to do. So once I met that I was a full yard master and working up in the tower and that I mean that was just like sitting behind that train. KH:

(Laughter)

MC:

Running trains and communicating with the fire department and the switchmen who had all these different switch engines moving and every shift you had the same amount of trains. The type of trains there all the same departure times, so you had to put all the little pieces of the puzzle together to get the trains out on time in rain or sleet or gloom of night uh it was a (inaudible). That’s why my wife never called me at work cuz (inaudible)

KH:

(Laughter)

MC:

From there I think I pretty well excelled at that position because I was offered a position as a… no as yard masters we certified our union and they made supervisors out of us. They called us supervisors of operations which in turn (inaudible) and then came up the day when I had a vicepresident walk up behind me. And I turned to him. And I knew him when he was basically a (inaudible) assistant (inaudible)master. And I asked him if he had any jobs like the one I was performing in Chicago and that started the ball rolling and it wasn’t 2 weeks later I was packing up. They moved us lock stock and barrel out here to southern California.

KH:

Now what did you come out here as?

MC:

I came out here as a full train master.

KH:

Oh.

MC:

Mmhumm…and then all the construction started and uh I was here for all of that and by the time I held the uh (inaudible) I was (inaudible) I was here for all of the construction that was going on and finally when they did complete it by this time the merger had started to take place. The Burlington Northern road was buying the Santa Fe and becoming the Burlington Northern Santa Fe and uh they were gonna revamp the whole level of supervisors and uh the superintendent to the head here at the time recommended me for the position that they were looking for in San Bernardino and the title was terminal manager. So I got a voice mail message from him saying that he recommended me for the position and low and behold I did not have to go through human resources to do anything they just say on such and such a day Mike Croy was (inaudible)

in San Bernardino. And that’s a double promotion because that was 2 pay grades up. KH:

Really

MC:

Yeah. So I was a really pleased with that so I had a huge salary increase and I had a company car and I was the you know (inaudible) But it comes with a lot of responsibility, a lot of headache and a lot of hours and those are not 8 hour days down there. Your on the property or your off the property they got you tethered with the beeper and the cell phone and its 2 o’clock in the morning every time a wheel goes off the track or every time somebody sprained a finger you’re the guy that has to go out there investigate do all the paperwork (inaudible) In the hospital at 5 o’clock in the afternoon and not come out until the sun come up the next morning. Which (inaudible) it’s not (inaudible)

KH:

Did that happen a lot?

MC:

Enough, enough that it aggravates you but you know that’s that’s the down side of the job the hours that you put in and um the (inaudible)

KH:

That’s (inaudible)

MC:

I’m from the old school by this time this is the 1990’s and I’ve been on the railroad for 30 plus years and so I’m still railroad back in the 1960’s where this is a new railroad now and new the supervisors. I came up the ranks the way everyone else on the railroad got promoted but now a days or I should say by the time I retired that had all changed. You know they were recruiting supervisors out of college at job fairs you know and sending them to 13 weeks of school and tell them okay you’re the trainmaster and they lacked a lot by doing that.

KH:

Right. (inaudible)

MC:

So by being a supervisor for 27 years out of the 37 that I was working for the railroad there were a lot of perks. You know there was I mean it was good you had stock options and then the 401

KH:

Right

MC:

And you had all that stuff and I started out (inaudible) when I was a kid. When I started that 401 I put in minimal because I couldn’t afford any more.

KH:

Right

MC:

But as the pay increases came over the years I would take a pay increase and increase my 401 contributions rather than (inaudible) if I had it at home I didn’t miss it to begin with so finally in a few years I was (inaudible) and I was (inaudible) year after year after year. So at 55 years you can go and you get a pension from the BNSF plus at 60 you get your railroad pension and my wife gets a teacher’s pension and I got a very comfortable 401 why would I want to work and need all of those headaches any more. I’m still playing with trains.

KH:

Did you leave at 60?

MC:

No I left at 55.

KH:

You did

MC:

Yah. See the criteria was you had to be uh 55 and you had to have up to an amount of years as supervisor. Well I met that criteria and you had to have 30 years service. Well I had 30 years service when I was 48.

KH:

Wow

MC:

So if you’re at 55 uh and I just didn’t make the decision that I am going to go ahead and retire. I talked it over with my family (inaudible). My wife fully supported my decision and so did the kids. They said dad get out of the railroad. I gotta mention I smoked almost 2 packs a day for 40 years

KH:

Wow

MC:

From the time I was 15 to 55 and when I retired I quit smoking. Can you imagine that? To do that? To quit after 40 years?

KH:

You feel a lot better though don’t you ?

MC:

I’ll tell you what I just got (inaudible) because I have type 2 diabetes. (inaudinble) But I can go to Disneyland and the amusement parks with the kids. When I was smoking I could not keep up with them. But now since I have quit smoking after 6 years I can start in the morning and stay up with my kids all day long at Disneyland. I can ask my wife. Right Hun.

Mrs. Croy:

Yeah.

MC:

There’s so, There’s so much difference. You know I’m glad I did it. (inaudible)

KH:

Was there any hazing when you worked at Santa Fe?

MC:

Never heard of it.

KH:

Never Heard of it.

MC:

No a lot of practical jokes but nothing they were practical jokes. They were a bunch of fun loving guys. Before the railroad got so strict. There was a lot of fun going on.

KH:

Was it very family oriented? The railroad?

MC:

There was a lot of nepotism, yes. There is and there always was and I think that’s the problem with the human resources the way they want to diversify. You bring in people who have no idea what the railroad is and it takes them so long to get accustomed. Not everybody can work for the railroad. Not in the operating department. In the shops you probably could because some trades you go in you come home you do the same trade everyday. But to be on the railroad on an operating department being on trains switching (inaudible) that’s a whole different ballgame. To not know where your gonna work the next day in the operating department uh…guys that is where the nepotism is a plus where fathers who work on the railroad get there kids on the railroad and they have already been accustomed to railroad life. They know what it is about. They know that you better not come home and have a beer because in 4 hours there gonna call you back out on the railroad. You know not everybody can live the railroad life. (inaudible) They get on a train in Los Angeles and take it to Barstow or they take it to needles and then they get in a hotel and they stay there till there called back up thinking oh well we got nothing coming I’m gonna be off for 24 hours maybe I’ll (inaudible) up some friends (inaudible) rest 8 hours rest (inaudible) going back up the other way. So it’s not all its cracked up to be and not everybody can handle life in this job. There’s a lot of divorces in the railroading industry because wives can not tolerate there being away from home all of the time and being on call. They miss the birthdays they miss the Christmases they miss all the holidays because they’re out working. I was out working the first 10 Christmases we were married.

KH:

Wow.

HJ:

Did your father work on the railroad?

MC:

No.

HJ:

NO.

MC:

No, my father told me when I first started working on the railroad that I was as happy as a pig in you know what and he says there won’t be any

railroad when it comes time for you to retire. That’s how shorted sighted he was. KH:

Oh

MC:

Well the railroads were dying in them days really there was a lot of abandonment and (inaudible) and railroads were going bankrupt and what kick started the railroads back was the (inaudible) act. All the railroads were regulated by rates by the government. If you were going to ship a box car from (Inaudible) to Chicago the government regulated what you were shipping and what the rate was going to be. There was no competition. They took the competition away. Well in 1980 something congress passed what was called the Stagger’s act. You can look it up. They deregulated the railroad they (inaudible) airplane ticket prices as well. When the United States deregulated that put competition back in the fairs. Okay so who ever offered the lowest fare was the guy getting the business. (inaudible) and that created a huge resurgence and put the life back into the railroad.

KH:

Huh.

MC:

There’s nothing to (Inaudible) back into the railroad today. I mean it is managed a lot better. Probably because I’m gone (Laughter) um we have become not a national economy but an international economy and we (inaudible) countries are the (Inaudible) they didn’t build the Alameda corridor for nothing. That trench. A forty mile trench between Long Beach and Los Angeles. They didn’t build that for nothing. They wanted to increase the trains. The speed of the trains have gone from 10 miles per hour to forty miles per hour (inaudible). They didn’t build the third main line from San Bernardino all the way up the Cajon Pass summit for nothing. The business will rebound and its gonna come back in a big way. Those big harbor ships that dock at Long Beach the reason they dock there is because it is faster to go from Long Beach to New York. And they unload those containers and they put them back up on ships and they go to Europe. If you didn’t know that.

KH:

I knew that.

MC:

Did you?

KH:

Uhuh.

MC:

Well they go that way because ships will not fit through the panama canal. The Panama Canal is only 110 feet wide. And those ships are a lot larger than that. They have to go all the way around South America.

KH: MC:

Right Whether or not this economy could be in the tank as long as the railroads are hauling that international business from coast to coast they are making money. Besides that is greed. (inaudible)

KH:

(inaudible)

MC:

Pollution would be trips on the harbor. And now with the new technology they have got they are building locomotives that run on natural gas. (inaudible)

KH:

Really. I didn’t know they did that.

KH:

Can you tell me a little bit about the relationship between management and employees? Since you were a manager.

MC:

Yes, yes but I was also an employee and I think that was a big key to that. I think I was a big (inaudible) I had a chip on my shoulder when I had come to work down on the railroad. And say well I’ m the boss and you’re not. When I came up to the (inaudible) that is the report I had with my employees. I can call any one of them now. I had a fantastic report with my employees. And I treated them all fairly. And I over looked a lot of stuff. That I probably (inaudible). But for the employee-employer relationship I over looked stuff and I said come on you can’t do that you know. You got to (inaudible) stuff (inaudible) a little bit of that goes a long way. And the guys will work that much harder for you. And the switchmen out there in the yard they worked at a comfortable pace and there suppose to work safely. Safety first right. And we would stress safety but you’d a crew if they aren’t happy with a supervisor they work that much slower.

KH:

On purpose.

MC:

That’s right and if they work that much slower you’re not going to accomplish the work load. Your not going to get the trains going on time and when the (inaudible) comes and says why wasn’t the train out on time I said well my crews out there and there working as safely as they can (inaudible) because you know in real life (inaudible) a lot of supervisors I never did (inaudible)

KH:

Do you still talk to a lot of them?

MC:

Uh…You know I talk to several a couple of weeks ago down at the depot.

KH:

Uhumm….

MC:

And I see them down at the railroad museum in Perris. There’s a swap meet down there twice a year. Once in the spring and once in the fall with the railroad stuff (inaudible)

KH:

Really

MC:

Ad they (inaudible) down there. And I do meet every year with 8 other guys that I’ve worked with over the years in this area. But we’re all (inaudible) well we’ve been doing it for 25 years. And and I came home from work one cold winter and I mean it was freezing. And I came to a stop sign and the night guys, one of the guys, was coming up and I was going home and we rolled down the windows and there’s frost all over the place and its freezing and I uh said screw this let’s go to Vegas. So we got a couple of guys together we went to Las Vegas. And we had a group of nine guys and we’ve been going been going every year know for 25 years. (Inaudible) The guys that I worked as switchmen with, guys that I followed up the ladder as supervisors, we’re all retired.

KH:

That’s nice.

MC:

Yeah so every year know.

KH:

When you went to San Bernardino in 1991 was the Harvey House still open?

MC:

No.

KH:

No

MC:

No. in fact the depot was still open it was an Amtrak station. We’ll it had been an Amtrak station since 1971 when Amtrak took over. But the once they built the building, the headquarters down on (inaudible) what’s the name of the street down there. Where the corporate headquarters is there?

HJ:

(inaudible)

MC:

The name uh I can’t remember. Anyway umm anyway once they built it down there they moved everybody. All the corporate office. The second part of the depot, the second floor of the depot was all Santa Fe division headquarters. So when they built the other depot, the other building they moved everybody out and it was vacant. And it just deteriorated (inaudible) I’ve been up there since they’ve renovated it and they’ve done a hell of a job up there. I mean when I went up there about 6 months ago uh

`

(Inaudible) I don’t know how many thousands of pounds of pigeon droppings that they had got out of the place. KH:

Ewww.

MC:

Remember. Did they tell you that?

KH:

No

MC;

And they’d taken all of the pigeon off the marble steps. They had the original marble steps (Inaudible) the Harvey house.

KH;

(inaudible)

MC:

Hospitality Lane. That’s where it’s at.

KH:

Oh okay

KH:

(inaudible)

HJ:

(inaudible)

MC:

Would I do it again? Yes.

KH:

(Laughter) (inaudible) great time doing that.

MC:

I did and um I mean that’s what everybody always I played with trains for 37 years. And you know the old story, the old adage is you know if you enjoyed what you do you never worked a day in your life. And for 99.9% of it it’s true. I mean there’s bad days in any job but to look forward to going to work because you’re having so much fun I mean that was what I did. Of course I didn’t like 20 below zero you know I mean that was bitter. I mean that was hard to take. That was hard to take. That was bitter and I’ve seen a lot of that and I’ve seen a lot of derailments and you can (inaudible) and I’ve been out on some unpleasant fatality scenes which is not fun. But for the most part I mean it’s gratifying to know that you’ve done a job well done, a good job and you (inaudible) I mean.

KH:

You’re the first person that I have spoken to that absolutely (inaudible) you’re the first experience. (Inaudible)

MC:

You gotta understand. When I graduated from high school I went to catholic all boys, catholic high school. Very strict. I mean very strict. I mean they beat you. You know. And the school that I went to was called a college preparatory school and this is where you would go to (Inaudible) to the next level of education. And that was just not for me no and I was

not going to go to college. I don’t see any benefit of doing it. When I got hired on the Santa Fe I had another opportunity for employment. My uncle was an electrician. And he told me that he told me that he could get me in as an electrician’s apprentice. Which is a tough thing to do in the city of Chicago because the unions were so tight. And there is a lot of money involved that changes hands and your name gets picked. (inaudible) I was told how much money it was going to take for me to get picked as an apprentice in the crocked mob run electrical union Okay. SO my dad took me and said well you wanna go be this electrician and they wanted something like 600 dollars (inaudible). And I said no I like what I’m doing and that’s when my dad told me well railroads ain’t even gonna be around then when you retire. You know. (inaudible) My father never thought I was gonna amount to anything anyway. KH:

(inaudible)

MC:

It worked out. Well my father’s dead and so is my mother but uh. And so they were in Chicago. It’s uh been a great life for me my families great I love my kids. I have grandkids. There isn’t a weekend go by that we don’t do something with the family. (inaudible) so close though.

Wife:

(Inaudible)

MC:

I was only at the hospital when my first child was born the other four I was not home. I was out on the railroad.

KH:

Gees

MC:

And so my neighbor would take her when you was delivering and that’s how he got on the birth certificate (laughter) That’s true. (Inaudible)

KH:

That’s a tough job.

MC:

It is. It is but you gotta you know it’s in your blood like (inaudible)

KH:

(Inaudible)

MC:

I can remember one time I worked 69 straight days and in the middle of winter. 69 straight days took one day of and then worked 39 more.

KH:

Wow

MC:

And those were 11 and 12 hour days

KH:

That’s a lot. I complain about my hours.

MC: KH:

You know when you’re raising 5 kids your (inaudible) why should I stay home for like another 150 hours that I can go off to the railroad and have peace of mind and not deal with the kids. (Laughter) (inaudible)

MC:

(inaudible)

Wife:

(inaudible)

KH:

(inaudible)

HJ:

(Inaudible)

KH:

Inaudible This interview was transcribed by Heather Johnson. This was done to the best of my ability.

Heather Johnson