Suspension
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=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=WHEEL ALIGNMENT =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-----Original Message----From: Dave Muse Sent: Oct 31, 2005 9:05 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Bowlegged Electravan Anybody know what might be going on here? When I look at the front of my van, I see what appears to be way, way too much positive camber. The tires lean in so much that the outside edges have tread worn off, while the inside edges have little wear. I took a look at the coilover shocks in front, they appear to be about the right size, and all but about 1 1/2" of the shaft/spring is compressed. The manual just says that "camber doesn't need to be adjusted." Dave Muse Hey Dave, Make sure your toe is correctly adjusted. I was looking in the manual and saw the caster spec is 15 degrees 25'. This is a LOT of caster! most cars are 5 degrees or less. This means any deviation in toe, in or out ,will have your tires riding on either the inside or outside edges. I work on BMW professionally and see this regularly. BMW uses alot of caster on their cars as well, (about 9 degrees). Good for road hugging - bad for tire life. I hope this helps. Robert M.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= TORSION BARS =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
--------------ANY torsion bar can bring the ride height up to the right level, you just need to adjust them. Both ends of the torsion bar have "teeth" on them. One end has more teeth (fine adjustment) than the other (Course adjustment) By adjusting where any height desired one of the holders down to a fraction ---------------
those teeth mesh in the holders you can get just about (within a half inch or so). Also if I recall correctly has an adjustment screw on it allowing final adjustment of an inch.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= SHOCKS AND COIL OVER SPRINGS =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Again, get the right tools to compress and then remove the springs. Car springs store a bunch of energy when compressed and will take your head right off if given half a chance. They will punch right through the fender if the compression tool slips off. When you have the springs out, replace the shocks and struts. (Don't get cheezy ones.) Consider putting in beefier sway bars as well. -------------------------Subject: Re: Suspension substitution Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]> In-Reply-To: <[email protected]> >I'm working on the van's brakes (one wheel at a time) and have noticed how >overloaded the coil-over-shocks are. Are there higher capacity shocks >available from the wreckers? Which vehicles should I look for as parts >donors (don't want the cost of buying anything new)? Do the front and rear >need different "donors"? > good question..... I think BillG changed his shocks. On the sticky brake question.... I've had mostly good luck with mine. the cylinder bores were worn so they weren't too straight. I honed them and then rubbed just a little graphite powder on the 'tops' of the cylinders, so when they were fully extended they wouldn't get cockeyed and stick. I had a theory that if the fluid leaked out of one,the other one extended farther than normal. I also installed some new springs. I found some NAPA parts that seems to be a good fit. They are a little unusual, but not impossible. WEhn mine stuck they were STUCK HARD! the van wouldn't even roll. I was burning grease and I think I warped a drum. Now, if it happens I know to just crawl under there and leak out some fluid and I'll get home. JERryu Stubbs -----------------------------------------------Sender: From: Subject: Comments: To:
North Texas Electric Auto Association <[email protected]> William Glickman Re: Suspension substitution [email protected]
Hi Jerry, Yes, I did change the coil over shocks in my 79 ElectraVan. I used adjustable racing coil over shocks from Carrera. They were the closest when compressed and extended to those that were on the Van. I used coils with 155 pound
per inch compression on each front wheel and coils with 125 pounds per inch compression on each rear wheel. I compressed each front coil about 2.25 inches out of a possible 3 inches and each rear coil about 2 inches out of a possible 3 inches after installation. The ride is a little stiff, but body height is correct and the front of Van dips nicely on a panic stop. It was either use Carrera or have new torsion bars made to order and then try to find other inexpensive coil over shocks that I had not found. I tried to readjust the front torsion bar, but was unable to keep the body from being too high. Too high caused the wheels to scrub and make noise on turns. I have the Carrera part numbers in a notebook if someone needs them, but they were about $ 125 per shock. Each shock included a coil spring, adjusting tube, collar, and nut. This price was after a substantial discount because I put their signs on my ElectraVan for the 1996 American Tour de Sol from New York City to Washington, DC. I removed the right front brake drum and found no evidence of a sticking wheel cylinder, weak springs, or broken springs. The drums seem to move in and out with the movement of the brake pedal. It is hard to understand unless maybe the rubber brake hose has deteriorated enough to let fluid get by on the way to the brake drum and not return as fast for some reason. The front brakes are self adjusting, factory set at 0.012 clearance. I may try bleeding both fronts again to see if there is any air in the lines. Later, Bill >I also installed some new springs. I found some NAPA parts that seems >to be a good fit. They are a little unusual, but not impossible. > >WEhn mine stuck they were STUCK HARD! the van wouldn't even roll. >I was burning grease and I think I warped a drum. Now, if it happens >I know to just crawl under there and leak out some fluid and I'll >get home. > >JERryu Stubbs ---------------------------------------------
--------------------------From: "Michael A. Radtke" <[email protected]> Subject: Shocks Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]> Hello, My Van's shocks seemed good and were dry. However, in the last month, two have begun to leak. What do we do? Is there an equivalent available in the US? Is it easy to move the helper springs from the old to the new? Is the shock rebuildable? Thanks, Mike ---------------------From: Russell Levine Subject: Suspension in progress Comments: To: ElectraVan List <[email protected]> Hi list - Finally got around to removing the shocks today, and boy, do I feel dumb -- I didn't know there was a torsion bar suspension in there! When the rear end didn't hit the rubber stop, I realized the coil-overs aren't the sole support! So now, do I need to have the coils, or can I get a shock absorber of similar length and compression? One other question: since the van is in no shape to get weighed right now, can anyone give me a good estimate of the weight on each axle (or better yet - each wheel)? The system has 102V in the traction pack, plus the 12V auxiliary battery (which will become one more 6V when I get my DC-to-DC converter
from Todd). Thanks for any info. Russell L
->Thanks, >Mike I put Parts Master shocks on my Bus. #34051. These come with the overload springs on them. I used them front and rear. I have had them on for the past 18000.0 miles. (28900km) You can get these at any AutoValue parts store in the country. Rob. > -----------------------------------From: [email protected] Subject: Re: Shocks Comments: To: [email protected] Comments: cc: [email protected] Content-type: text/plain I use Carrera coil over adjustable racing shocks with 125 Lbs/inch in rear and 155 Lbs/inch in front. Curb Wt 3340. ->Rob said: Mike I put Parts Master shocks on my Bus. #34051. > These come with the overload springs on them. (Note from Dave: these are Gabriel 34051) > > I ask: I don't think that I know the Parts Master brand. What > type of place did you buy them from? Do the coils look > like the old ones? About what did you pay and when? > Mike I think the 34051 was $35.00 for the pair. I will check tomorrow to be sure. AutoValue is a national chain of auto parts stores. Parts Master is there house brand. These shocks were made by Gabriel so the part number my be the same. Rob. ---------From: Subject: Comments: To: In-Reply-To: Content-type: >
Rob Vasichek Re: Shocks EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]> <[email protected]> text/html; charset=us-ascii
Mike the 34051 shocks are $37.50 each.
--------------------------
--------------------custom springs:
Rob.
By the way, I had the new coils done by: Coil Springs Specialists St Mary's, Kansas (913) 437-2025 I can just drop them off at the garage and get the work done now. They make these special clamps to compress these springs and disassemble everything. I don't know about you but whenever I take something apart that has springs they immediately sproing away into the never-never land of lost socks and eyeglass screws. These aren't the kind of springs I want to let loose in the house... --http://jerryrig.com/convert/step39.html -----------------------It's pretty common to want to swap coil springs to boost up the ride height of your conversion. If you can't get a tip on the model car that has slightly beefier springs, you will need to go to the junk yard and figure it out for yourself. This is worth the effort because custom springs cost about $150 a set and junkyard springs can be had for less than $50 a set. First, measure the compressed height of the springs as they are installed on the car, bearing the full weight of the car. Next, you must remove the springs from your car to measure the free height. Take them out of the struts (with the proper tools so you don't end up in the hospital.) Carefully measure the free height, outside diameter, and the coil wire thickness. Take a front and rear spring with you when you go to the junkyard. You need to find a spring with the same outside diameter, but with either the same size coil wire and a slightly taller free height _OR_ the same free height and a slightly larger coil wire _OR_ with fewer coils and the same wire diameter and free height. If the coil wire is the same diameter, then the difference in free height will give you a rough idea of the difference in ride height. A two inch taller spring (with the same coil wire and about the same number of coils) will raise your car about two inches. If you choose a spring with thicker coil wire, it should not be much thicker. The "spring rate" is roughly proportional to the diameter of the wire. If you want the compressed height to go up by 10%, then the coil wire should be about 10% bigger (with the same free height and the same number of coils.) If you reduce the number of coils by 10% then the compressed height will go up by about 10% (if the coil wire diameter and the free height stay the same.) This isn't rocket science. :^) Again, get the right tools to compress and then remove the springs. Car springs store a bunch of energy when compressed and will take your head right off if given half a chance. They will punch right through the fender if the compression tool slips off. When you have the springs out, replace the shocks and struts. (Don't get cheezy ones.) Consider putting in beefier sway bars as well. _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O'
--Great summary, but one minor correction, Bill. The spring rate for a coil spring is ( almost exactly) proportional to the fourth power of the wire diameter. For example, a 1 % increase in wire diameter results in about a 4 % increase in spring rate, and a 10% increase in wire diameter results in about a 46% increase in spring rate. This means you have to measure wire diameters VERY carefully to get a good prediction of the relative spring rates of two springs different wire diameters. Also, don't believe anyone who tells you the the spring rate depends on the " grade" of steel used. All steels have almost exactly the same shear modulus and that is what determines the spring rate. A spring made of the wrong steel may sag over time ( or even break ) but the type of steel won't effect the spring rate. Phil --------------------------Hi Dave, Carrera Shocks, 5412 South Peachtree Road, Atlanta, GA 30341 Phone: (770) 451-8811 Coil Springs: 10SM125 (125 LB / inch compress)for rear and 10SM150 (150 LB / inch compress) for front with 10 inch free length and 8.1 inch max stroke. Both springs are 1.875 inch ID. Shocks 3232 front 8.43 comp to 11.53 extended 150 pound damping, 3235 rear same comp and extended, but 300 pound damping. You need to contact Carrera for a new catalog and pricing as I have not found my 10 year old receipts, but the coil overs are atleast two and maybe up to five times the cost of conventional coil over shocks. Shocks 7.38 to 10.96 inch front (194 LB extending, 123 LB compressing) and 8.59 to 10.59 inch rear (194 LB extending and 141 LB compressing) according to the shop manual. Vehicle height: 10.8 to 12 inch from center of torsion bar front and 10.2 to 11.6 inch rear according to the shop manual. Camber 2 degree 10 minutes front and 2 degrees 15 minutes rear, Caster 15 degrees 25 minutes, and toe-in 0.3 to 0.5 inch front and 0.35 to 0.59 inch rear according to the shop manual.
Menlo Park III, Bill
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
CV JOINTS =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
------------------------------From: Subject: Comments: To: Content-Type:
"Michael A. Radtke" <[email protected]> Re: [ElectraVan] anyone have EV-1 ver. C controller schematics EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]> text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Ken, Drive train: My guess is that you have a stuck or damaged CV joint. I have been surprised on my Vanagon how much these joints can be abused and still be repairable. I have one that all the metal is discolored from the heat of running it without lubricant. That happened to it 70,000 miles ago. So, take it apart and see what's up. If it can be cleaned up and none of the surfaces are galled, it just needs CV grease to make it like new. In any case, you will need a new boot. I haven't had to replace my CV joint boots yet, but I'll bet that something can be found that fits. If you go through the process of matching something up, please let me know what you end up with. The only Subaru only parts that I've needed so far were some tail light lenses. I helped a fellow in Japan get some Vanagon parts and in return, he found what I needed. The Subaru 360 Driver's club has a couple of ElectraVan owners. The club is always on the lookout for parts suppliers. There is a Subaru dealer in Flagstaff AZ that has offered to get factory parts if they are available for club members. You may wish to join the club. The club address is: http://clubs.hemmings.com/frameset.cfm?club=subaru360 The dealer address is: Eric Pifer (Parts Manager) Planet Nissan Subaru 2020 East Route 66 Flagstaff, AZ. 86004 E-mail:[email protected] Phone: 520-774-9163 I don't remember the transmission lube spec, but I can look it up and have it for you on Monday.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= TORSION BARS =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
--------------ANY torsion bar can bring the ride height up to the right level, you just need to adjust them. Both ends of the torsion bar have "teeth" on them. One end has more teeth (fine adjustment) than the other (Course adjustment) By adjusting where any height desired one of the holders down to a fraction ---------------
those teeth mesh in the holders you can get just about (within a half inch or so). Also if I recall correctly has an adjustment screw on it allowing final adjustment of an inch.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= SHOCKS AND COIL OVER SPRINGS =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Again, get the right tools to compress and then remove the springs. Car springs store a bunch of energy when compressed and will take your head right off if given half a chance. They will punch right through the fender if the compression tool slips off. When you have the springs out, replace the shocks and struts. (Don't get cheezy ones.) Consider putting in beefier sway bars as well. -------------------------Subject: Re: Suspension substitution Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]> In-Reply-To: <[email protected]> >I'm working on the van's brakes (one wheel at a time) and have noticed how >overloaded the coil-over-shocks are. Are there higher capacity shocks >available from the wreckers? Which vehicles should I look for as parts >donors (don't want the cost of buying anything new)? Do the front and rear >need different "donors"? > good question..... I think BillG changed his shocks. On the sticky brake question.... I've had mostly good luck with mine. the cylinder bores were worn so they weren't too straight. I honed them and then rubbed just a little graphite powder on the 'tops' of the cylinders, so when they were fully extended they wouldn't get cockeyed and stick. I had a theory that if the fluid leaked out of one,the other one extended farther than normal. I also installed some new springs. I found some NAPA parts that seems to be a good fit. They are a little unusual, but not impossible. WEhn mine stuck they were STUCK HARD! the van wouldn't even roll. I was burning grease and I think I warped a drum. Now, if it happens I know to just crawl under there and leak out some fluid and I'll get home. JERryu Stubbs -----------------------------------------------Sender: From: Subject: Comments: To:
North Texas Electric Auto Association <[email protected]> William Glickman
Hi Jerry, Yes, I did change the coil over shocks in my 79 ElectraVan. I used adjustable racing coil over shocks from Carrera. They were the closest when compressed and extended to those that were on the Van. I used coils with 155 pound
per inch compression on each front wheel and coils with 125 pounds per inch compression on each rear wheel. I compressed each front coil about 2.25 inches out of a possible 3 inches and each rear coil about 2 inches out of a possible 3 inches after installation. The ride is a little stiff, but body height is correct and the front of Van dips nicely on a panic stop. It was either use Carrera or have new torsion bars made to order and then try to find other inexpensive coil over shocks that I had not found. I tried to readjust the front torsion bar, but was unable to keep the body from being too high. Too high caused the wheels to scrub and make noise on turns. I have the Carrera part numbers in a notebook if someone needs them, but they were about $ 125 per shock. Each shock included a coil spring, adjusting tube, collar, and nut. This price was after a substantial discount because I put their signs on my ElectraVan for the 1996 American Tour de Sol from New York City to Washington, DC. I removed the right front brake drum and found no evidence of a sticking wheel cylinder, weak springs, or broken springs. The drums seem to move in and out with the movement of the brake pedal. It is hard to understand unless maybe the rubber brake hose has deteriorated enough to let fluid get by on the way to the brake drum and not return as fast for some reason. The front brakes are self adjusting, factory set at 0.012 clearance. I may try bleeding both fronts again to see if there is any air in the lines. Later, Bill >I also installed some new springs. I found some NAPA parts that seems >to be a good fit. They are a little unusual, but not impossible. > >WEhn mine stuck they were STUCK HARD! the van wouldn't even roll. >I was burning grease and I think I warped a drum. Now, if it happens >I know to just crawl under there and leak out some fluid and I'll >get home. > >JERryu Stubbs ---------------------------------------------
--------------------------From: "Michael A. Radtke" <[email protected]> Subject: Shocks Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]> Hello, My Van's shocks seemed good and were dry. However, in the last month, two have begun to leak. What do we do? Is there an equivalent available in the US? Is it easy to move the helper springs from the old to the new? Is the shock rebuildable? Thanks, Mike ---------------------From: Russell Levine
from Todd). Thanks for any info. Russell L
->Thanks, >Mike I put Parts Master shocks on my Bus. #34051. These come with the overload springs on them. I used them front and rear. I have had them on for the past 18000.0 miles. (28900km) You can get these at any AutoValue parts store in the country. Rob. > -----------------------------------From: [email protected] Subject: Re: Shocks Comments: To: [email protected] Comments: cc: [email protected] Content-type: text/plain I use Carrera coil over adjustable racing shocks with 125 Lbs/inch in rear and 155 Lbs/inch in front. Curb Wt 3340. ->Rob said: Mike I put Parts Master shocks on my Bus. #34051. > These come with the overload springs on them. (Note from Dave: these are Gabriel 34051) > > I ask: I don't think that I know the Parts Master brand. What > type of place did you buy them from? Do the coils look > like the old ones? About what did you pay and when? > Mike I think the 34051 was $35.00 for the pair. I will check tomorrow to be sure. AutoValue is a national chain of auto parts stores. Parts Master is there house brand. These shocks were made by Gabriel so the part number my be the same. Rob. ---------From: Subject: Comments: To: In-Reply-To: Content-type: >
Rob Vasichek
Mike the 34051 shocks are $37.50 each.
--------------------------
--------------------custom springs:
Rob.
By the way, I had the new coils done by: Coil Springs Specialists St Mary's, Kansas (913) 437-2025 I can just drop them off at the garage and get the work done now. They make these special clamps to compress these springs and disassemble everything. I don't know about you but whenever I take something apart that has springs they immediately sproing away into the never-never land of lost socks and eyeglass screws. These aren't the kind of springs I want to let loose in the house... --http://jerryrig.com/convert/step39.html -----------------------It's pretty common to want to swap coil springs to boost up the ride height of your conversion. If you can't get a tip on the model car that has slightly beefier springs, you will need to go to the junk yard and figure it out for yourself. This is worth the effort because custom springs cost about $150 a set and junkyard springs can be had for less than $50 a set. First, measure the compressed height of the springs as they are installed on the car, bearing the full weight of the car. Next, you must remove the springs from your car to measure the free height. Take them out of the struts (with the proper tools so you don't end up in the hospital.) Carefully measure the free height, outside diameter, and the coil wire thickness. Take a front and rear spring with you when you go to the junkyard. You need to find a spring with the same outside diameter, but with either the same size coil wire and a slightly taller free height _OR_ the same free height and a slightly larger coil wire _OR_ with fewer coils and the same wire diameter and free height. If the coil wire is the same diameter, then the difference in free height will give you a rough idea of the difference in ride height. A two inch taller spring (with the same coil wire and about the same number of coils) will raise your car about two inches. If you choose a spring with thicker coil wire, it should not be much thicker. The "spring rate" is roughly proportional to the diameter of the wire. If you want the compressed height to go up by 10%, then the coil wire should be about 10% bigger (with the same free height and the same number of coils.) If you reduce the number of coils by 10% then the compressed height will go up by about 10% (if the coil wire diameter and the free height stay the same.) This isn't rocket science. :^) Again, get the right tools to compress and then remove the springs. Car springs store a bunch of energy when compressed and will take your head right off if given half a chance. They will punch right through the fender if the compression tool slips off. When you have the springs out, replace the shocks and struts. (Don't get cheezy ones.) Consider putting in beefier sway bars as well. _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O'
--Great summary, but one minor correction, Bill. The spring rate for a coil spring is ( almost exactly) proportional to the fourth power of the wire diameter. For example, a 1 % increase in wire diameter results in about a 4 % increase in spring rate, and a 10% increase in wire diameter results in about a 46% increase in spring rate. This means you have to measure wire diameters VERY carefully to get a good prediction of the relative spring rates of two springs different wire diameters. Also, don't believe anyone who tells you the the spring rate depends on the " grade" of steel used. All steels have almost exactly the same shear modulus and that is what determines the spring rate. A spring made of the wrong steel may sag over time ( or even break ) but the type of steel won't effect the spring rate. Phil --------------------------Hi Dave, Carrera Shocks, 5412 South Peachtree Road, Atlanta, GA 30341 Phone: (770) 451-8811 Coil Springs: 10SM125 (125 LB / inch compress)for rear and 10SM150 (150 LB / inch compress) for front with 10 inch free length and 8.1 inch max stroke. Both springs are 1.875 inch ID. Shocks 3232 front 8.43 comp to 11.53 extended 150 pound damping, 3235 rear same comp and extended, but 300 pound damping. You need to contact Carrera for a new catalog and pricing as I have not found my 10 year old receipts, but the coil overs are atleast two and maybe up to five times the cost of conventional coil over shocks. Shocks 7.38 to 10.96 inch front (194 LB extending, 123 LB compressing) and 8.59 to 10.59 inch rear (194 LB extending and 141 LB compressing) according to the shop manual. Vehicle height: 10.8 to 12 inch from center of torsion bar front and 10.2 to 11.6 inch rear according to the shop manual. Camber 2 degree 10 minutes front and 2 degrees 15 minutes rear, Caster 15 degrees 25 minutes, and toe-in 0.3 to 0.5 inch front and 0.35 to 0.59 inch rear according to the shop manual.
Menlo Park III, Bill
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
CV JOINTS =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
------------------------------From: Subject: Comments: To: Content-Type:
"Michael A. Radtke" <[email protected]> Re: [ElectraVan] anyone have EV-1 ver. C controller schematics EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <[email protected]> text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Ken, Drive train: My guess is that you have a stuck or damaged CV joint. I have been surprised on my Vanagon how much these joints can be abused and still be repairable. I have one that all the metal is discolored from the heat of running it without lubricant. That happened to it 70,000 miles ago. So, take it apart and see what's up. If it can be cleaned up and none of the surfaces are galled, it just needs CV grease to make it like new. In any case, you will need a new boot. I haven't had to replace my CV joint boots yet, but I'll bet that something can be found that fits. If you go through the process of matching something up, please let me know what you end up with. The only Subaru only parts that I've needed so far were some tail light lenses. I helped a fellow in Japan get some Vanagon parts and in return, he found what I needed. The Subaru 360 Driver's club has a couple of ElectraVan owners. The club is always on the lookout for parts suppliers. There is a Subaru dealer in Flagstaff AZ that has offered to get factory parts if they are available for club members. You may wish to join the club. The club address is: http://clubs.hemmings.com/frameset.cfm?club=subaru360 The dealer address is: Eric Pifer (Parts Manager) Planet Nissan Subaru 2020 East Route 66 Flagstaff, AZ. 86004 E-mail:[email protected] Phone: 520-774-9163 I don't remember the transmission lube spec, but I can look it up and have it for you on Monday.
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