Olivet Discourse~a Community Forum

Olivet Discourse [Tread from “A Community Forum” (http://members.boardhost.com/ACF)] Olivet Discourse - Jon November 13, 2006, 3:30 pm Re: Olivet Discourse - Boki November 13, 2006, 4:27 pm Re: Olivet Discourse - Jon November 13, 2006, 4:56 pm Re: Olivet Discourse - Bev November 13, 2006, 5:44 pm Re: Olivet Discourse - Élan November 14, 2006, 1:33 am Re: Olivet Discourse - Boki November 13, 2006, 6:41 pm Re: Olivet Discourse - Jon November 14, 2006, 12:04 am Re: Olivet Discourse - Élan November 14, 2006, 1:37 am Re: Olivet Discourse - Ton November 14, 2006, 6:32 am ~ 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Re: Olivet Discourse - Jon November 14, 2006, 12:30 pm Re: Olivet Discourse - Jon November 16, 2006, 5:17 pm Re: Olivet Discourse - Boki November 16, 2006, 9:45 pm Re: Olivet Discourse - Jon November 17, 2006, 12:01 am ~ 3 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Re: Olivet Discourse - Jon November 17, 2006, 2:47 pm Re: Olivet Discourse - Jon November 17, 2006, 4:27 pm Re: Olivet Discourse - Boki November 17, 2006, 6:44 pm Re: Olivet Discourse - Jon November 17, 2006, 9:49 pm Re: Olivet Discourse - Boki November 18, 2006, 1:50 pm Re: Olivet Discourse - Jon November 19, 2006, 4:47 am

Posted by Jon on November 13, 2006, 3:30 pm I thought I'd open up a new thread on this, because I think the old one got kinda lost in the shuffle. At this point, I haven't moved anything around chronologically yet--it's still in the order in which Jesus told it. And for those who might not know, I took all three accounts of the Olivet Discourse and put them together into a single account so that we could get the most info possible. But instead of re-posting every step of the process, I'll just post the most recent one I did. Enjoy!

Okay, now I'm going to break down these four sections into subsections. Notice the parts in red and blue. The red identifies the emergence of the false christs and false prophets, something which I believe will serve as a tentpole that will help us piece together the correct order of events. Similarly, two items have been coded in blue to show the relationship between certain sections. The PERSECUTION AND MARTYRDOM section is shown to take place before the BEGINNING OF SORROWS, not after. Also--and not much of a surprise--the DAY OF THE LORD section is shown to take place after the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION/DAYS OF VENGEANCE section, which is the order in which Jesus describes them. But before attempting to piece everything together in its final chronological order, we must take a look at the subsections and notice how everything is laid out. BEGINNING OF SORROWS

BEGINNING OF SORROWS 1) FALSE CHRISTS

And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,’ ‘I am the Christ,' and, 'The time has drawn near,' and will deceive many. Therefore do not go after them. 2) WARS

And you will hear of wars and commotions and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled or terrified; for all these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.” Then He said to them, "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 3) NATURAL CATASTROPHES

And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; 4) HEAVENLY SIGNS

and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

PERSECUTION AND MARTYRDOM 1) PERSECUTION AND MARTYRDOM

"But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you and kill you. Watch out for yourselves, for then they will deliver you up to councils and prisons, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. 2) TESTIMONY TO NATIONS

You will be brought before rulers and kings for My name's sake, but it will turn out for you as an occasion for a testimony to them. But when they arrest you and deliver you up, settle it in your hearts not to worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. For I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 3) BETRAYAL & HATRED

You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience possess your souls. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 4) FALSE PROPHETS

Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 5) LAWLESSNESS

5) LAWLESSNESS

And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 6) GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM PREACHED

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION/GREAT TRIBULATION 1) ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION

“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place where it ought not" (whoever reads, let him understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 2) DAYS OF VENGEANCE

For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. 3) TIMES OF THE GENTILES

And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 4) GREAT TRIBULATION

And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then in those days there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days. 5) FALSE CHRISTS AND FALSE PROPHETS

"Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'Look, He is there!' do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. But take heed; see, I have told you beforehand. Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

DAY OF THE LORD 1) SIGNS IN THE HEAVENS

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, 2) SIGNS ON THE EARTH and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 3) SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 4) ELECT GATHERED And then He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.” ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted by Boki on November 13, 2006, 4:27 pm, in reply to "Olivet Discourse" Good work, Jon. I think that this verse describes best your zeal for the Word of God: be diligent to present thyself approved to God--a workman irreproachable, rightly dividing the word of the truth; (2Ti 2:15 YLT) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted by Jon on November 13, 2006, 4:56 pm, in reply to "Re: Olivet Discourse" Boki, I think that there is a good reason that you and I (and everyone else, for that matter) come from different angles on many things. I believe that it's no mistake that all of us have found our way to this forum. It is through the different things that we bring to the table that we are all, as a group, more enlightened and become more knowledgeable about God's plan. I believe that pressing forward toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus includes striving to become one with our brothers and sisters in

God in Christ Jesus includes striving to become one with our brothers and sisters in knowledge, understanding and wisdom. If there is division, then there is work to be done. Compromise is not an acceptable solution, however, only truth. And if division remains, then the work continues. I seek to be one with all of you, and our efforts on this forum will be rewarded. I believe that none of us will have the same beliefs we did when we started. I know I already have a changed understanding, as do several others, so that's not a surprise. But I believe there are many more good things to come, if we hold fast and not give up. I think we've made some good progress in the area of the Mystery, and after talking with Tom, he's convinced me that it might be a good time to take a break and let some of these things sink in. Whether we've had our minds changed or whether we're still confident of our current understanding, there has been much said, and if we keep chugging along, we might miss out on some great treasures. Let's give God the glory for any truth that's been uncovered and ask Him for discernment to wade through any chaff that's built up. He is a consuming fire, so let's ask Him to consume any of our beliefs that are not true, no matter how scary that process might be. And while that's going on, maybe we can discuss other things that are less weighty-like the end times and the persecution of the saints! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted by Bev on November 13, 2006, 5:44 pm, in reply to "Re: Olivet Discourse" Amen Jon, I am going to continue my digging of these things we have been discussing, and keep asking our Father to help me and everyone else to have more knowledge and understanding. And I know He will. Bev. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted by Élan on November 14, 2006, 1:33 am, in reply to "Re: Olivet Discourse"

Quoting Bev: Amen Jon, I am going to continue my digging of these things we have been discussing, and keep asking our Father to help me and everyone else to have more knowledge and understanding. And I know He will. Bev.

Amen Bev – I’m with you on that note! Maranatha, Élan

Élan ~ 2 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Top Of Page ~~~ Posted by Jon on November 14, 2006, 12:30 pm, in reply to "Olivet Discourse" I have taken the cue from the two blue-colored phrases, and made a couple changes. The first change was to take the PERSECUTION AND MARTYRDOM section and put it before the BEGINNING OF SORROWS section. This is because of the phrase “But before all these things…” which indicates that these two sections needed to be reversed. The second change was to simply merge the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION/GREAT TRIBULATION section with the DAY OF THE LORD SECTION into one complete section. This was warranted by the phrase “Immediately after the tribulation of those days…” Up until now, it has been relatively easy and clear to determine what changes needed to be made in order to figure out the correct chronology of the Olivet Discourse. Now comes the hard part. If we are to attempt to make one cohesive chronological timetable instead of having three separate pieces, we will need to make certain choices, which may be more subjective than objective. But with everyone’s help, perhaps we can minimize the amount of subjectivity that will be utilized. The first thing I want to point out, as I did in the previous post, is the sections in red. These are the only phrases that are common to all three sections. The first instance refers to false prophets, the second instance refers to false christs and the third instance refers to both. Now I’m going to make a suggestion, but I wanted to hear from everyone before even considering it. My suggestion is that there is a definite period in time where false christs and false prophets arise in the chronological timetable, and that all three references to it are talking about this one occurrence. In other words, it is the one thing that links all three pieces together, and can be used to overlay one section on top of another, with the false christs and false prophets the point where all three sections line up. But before dealing with the obvious complications from doing that, what do you all think about this concept in theory? Do you believe the three references in red are talking about the same thing, or should they be kept separate? And if they ARE talking about the same thing, can all three be understood to be the starting point of the “rising up” of the false christs and false prophets?

PERSECUTION AND MARTYRDOM 1) PERSECUTION AND MARTYRDOM

"But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you and kill you. Watch out for yourselves, for then they will deliver you up to councils and prisons, and you will be beaten in the synagogues.

prisons, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. 2) TESTIMONY TO NATIONS

You will be brought before rulers and kings for My name's sake, but it will turn out for you as an occasion for a testimony to them. But when they arrest you and deliver you up, settle it in your hearts not to worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. For I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 3) BETRAYAL & HATRED

You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience possess your souls. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 4) FALSE PROPHETS

Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 5) LAWLESSNESS

And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 6) GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM PREACHED

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

BEGINNING OF SORROWS 1) FALSE CHRISTS

And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,’ ‘I am the Christ,' and, 'The time has drawn near,' and will deceive many. Therefore do not go after them. 2) WARS

And you will hear of wars and commotions and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled or terrified; for all these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.” Then He said to them, "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 3) NATURAL CATASTROPHES

And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; 4) HEAVENLY SIGNS

4) HEAVENLY SIGNS

and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION/GREAT TRIBULATION/DAY OF THE LORD 1) ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION

“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place where it ought not" (whoever reads, let him understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 2) DAYS OF VENGEANCE

For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. 3) TIMES OF THE GENTILES

And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 4) GREAT TRIBULATION

And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then in those days there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days. 5) FALSE CHRISTS AND FALSE PROPHETS

"Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'Look, He is there!' do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. But take heed; see, I have told you beforehand. Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. 6) SIGNS IN THE HEAVENS

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, 7) SIGNS ON THE EARTH

7) SIGNS ON THE EARTH

and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 8) SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 9) ELECT GATHERED

And then He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.” ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted by Jon on November 16, 2006, 5:17 pm, in reply to "Re: Olivet Discourse" Okay, The next step is to merge two of the sections together. I figure it will be easier to merge two sections first, then merge the final two together--rather than trying to merge all three at the same time. That would just be a little bit more than my brain can handle. So to start off, I'm going to merge the first two sections together--PERSECUTION AND MARTYRDOM and BEGINNING OF SORROWS. Let's get started. Here is what I have to work with:

PERSECUTION AND MARTYRDOM 1) Persecution and Martyrdom 2) Testimony to Nations 3) Betrayal and Hatred 4) False Prophets 5) Lawlessness 6) Gospel of the Kingdom Preached

BEGINNING OF SORROWS 1) False Christs 2) Wars 3) Natural Catastrophes 4) Heavenly Signs

4) Heavenly Signs

First I'm going to take a cue from the last section where false christs are shown to arise at the same time as the false prophets. Therefore, I'm going to assume that I can safely put these two together. Everything else would then revolve around the rising of the false christs and false prophets. Because the BEGINNING OF SORROWS section does not describe anything that happens prior to the rising of the false christs and false prophets, that part won't be hard to figure out. What's going to be a small challenge is how to merge the events that happen AFTER the rising of the false christs and false prophets. Here are the two lists that we will need to merge into one:

1) Lawlessness 2) Gospel of the Kingdom Preached

1) Wars 2) Natural Catastrophes 3) Heavenly Signs

I'm thinking of putting "lawlessness" after "wars" because of the natural way these two seem to flow together when I do so. Read the following and tell me if you agree:

And you will hear of wars and commotions and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled or terrified; for all these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.” Then He said to them, "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Pretty good flow, eh? I thought that the remark about enduring to the end would be better at the end, rather than the beginning. Plus the remark about love growing cold is vague enough that it can fit in a lot of different places. The next merge is also pretty much based on flow. I'm going to put the "gospel of the kingdom preached" section after the "natural catastrophes" and "heavenly signs." This is because the first two sections are said to be the BEGINNING of sorrows, while the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom is said to come before the END. So it's just a matter of thematically putting the "beginning" before the "end." Read the following and see if you agree:

And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. All these are the beginning of sorrows. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Still with me? Okay, now I'm going to put the entire narrative together as I've got it so far to see what you think. As I did above, I will mark one section's stuff in bold so you can see where I blended them together.

And Jesus answered and said to them: "They will lay their hands on you and persecute you and kill you. Watch out for yourselves, for then they will deliver you up to councils and prisons, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My name's sake, but it will turn out for you as an occasion for a testimony to them. But when they arrest you and deliver you up, settle it in your hearts not to worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. For I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience possess your souls. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, "I am He," "I am the Christ," and, "The time has drawn near," and will deceive many. Therefore do not go after them. And you will hear of wars and commotions and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled or terrified; for all these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.” Then He said to them, "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. All these are the beginning of sorrows. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

So what do you think so far? Do you feel that anything should be switched around either for the sake of flow or because other Scriptures describe a different order of events? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted by Boki on November 16, 2006, 9:45 pm, in reply to "Re: Olivet Discourse" Jon, It seems to me that you've done a good job. I think that the story flows in right chronological order. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted by Jon on November 17, 2006, 12:01 am, in reply to "Re: Olivet Discourse" Then I'll continue with the final merging tomorrow and we'll see what it looks like at that point. Thanks for the encouragement! ~ 3 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Top Of Page ~~~ Posted by Jon on November 17, 2006, 2:47 pm, in reply to "Olivet Discourse" Well, here we are at the last stage--the final merging of all the information presented in the Olivet Discourse into a single list of events all placed in chronological order! But before I start shifting things around, let me post the two last sections, as they currently stand:

PERSECUTION AND MARTYRDOM/BEGINNING OF SORROWS 1) PERSECUTION AND MARTYRDOM

They will lay their hands on you and persecute you and kill you. Watch out for yourselves, for then they will deliver you up to councils and prisons, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. 2) TESTIMONY TO NATIONS

You will be brought before rulers and kings for My name's sake, but it will turn out for you as an occasion for a testimony to them. But when they arrest you and deliver you up, settle it in your hearts not to worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. For I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 3) BETRAYAL & HATRED

You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they

You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience possess your souls. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 4) FALSE PROPHETS

Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 5) FALSE CHRISTS

Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,’ ‘I am the Christ,' and, 'The time has drawn near,' and will deceive many. Therefore do not go after them. 6) WARS

And you will hear of wars and commotions and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled or terrified; for all these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 7) LAWLESSNESS

And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 8) NATURAL CATASTROPHES

And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; 9) HEAVENLY SIGNS

and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. All these are the beginning of sorrows. 10) GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM PREACHED

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION/GREAT TRIBULATION/DAY OF THE LORD 1) ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION

But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place where it ought not (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 2) DAYS OF VENGEANCE

2) DAYS OF VENGEANCE

For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. 3) TIMES OF THE GENTILES

And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 4) GREAT TRIBULATION

And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then in those days there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days. 5) FALSE CHRISTS AND FALSE PROPHETS

Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'Look, He is there!' do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. But take heed; see, I have told you beforehand. Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. 6) SIGNS IN THE HEAVENS

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, 7) SIGNS ON THE EARTH

and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 8) SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 9) ELECT GATHERED

And then He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Now when these

from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

This merging will not be as easy as the last one, becuase now we have to merge the events before AND after the rising of the false christs and false prophets. Take a look over these two sections, and if you have any observations, please include them. I'll begin the merging process in my next post. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted by Jon on November 17, 2006, 4:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Olivet Discourse" Okay, let's start by merging the events that take place BEFORE the rising of the false christs and false prophets. Here is a shortened list:

1) Persecution and martyrdom 2) Testimony to nations 3) Betrayal and hatred

1) Abomination of desolation 2) Days of vengeance 3) Times of the Gentiles 4) Great tribulation

Actually, this merge isn't going to be too difficult. But it requires a few assumptions to be made. First of all, I'm going to assume that the persecution and martyrdom is referring to the fact that the saints will be given into the Antichrist's hand for 3 1/2 years. My next assumption is that this will take place during the same 3 1/2 years as the time of the Gentiles. Therefore, I believe that these two lists are more or less occurring at the same time. Therefore, since one list doesn't occur before the other (since they're occurring at the same time), the way in which we merge these two lists will mostly be a matter of flow. That being said, I believe that everything is kicked off by the abomination of desolation--so that needs to be the very first event. Also, for the sake of flow, I think it would be better to make a reference to the Great Tribulation before mentioning that there is persecution of the saints (which RESULTS from the fact that the Great Tribulation has begun). So let's see how these events could be merged together:

1) Abomination of desolation 2) Days of vengeance 3) Times of the Gentiles

3) Times of the Gentiles 4) Great tribulation 1) Persecution and martyrdom 2) Testimony to nations 3) Betrayal and hatred

Finally, let's see how it reads when you put the two sections together in this manner:

When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place where it ought not (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then in those days there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days. They will lay their hands on you and persecute you and kill you. Watch out for yourselves, for then they will deliver you up to councils and prisons, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My name's sake, but it will turn out for you as an occasion for a testimony to them. But when they arrest you and deliver you up, settle it in your hearts not to worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. For I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience possess your souls.

sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience possess your souls. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.

Before I move on to the stuff taking place AFTER the rising of the false christs and false prophets, are there any comments or suggestions on the order of events I just described? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted by Boki on November 17, 2006, 6:44 pm, in reply to "Re: Olivet Discourse" Jon, I think that there will be a persecution of saints and before the Great Tribulation, by the Harlot: And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. And I was astonished, when I beheld her, with great astonishment. (Rev 17:6 Rotherham) This is occurring before Antichrist takes the rule from her. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted by Jon on November 17, 2006, 9:49 pm, in reply to "Re: Olivet Discourse" Okay, let's talk about that then. It would seem that there is persecution by the harlot AND the beast. So we have to try to determine which persecution Jesus is talking about here. Jesus stated that at this time, the people of God will have powerful things to say that will be given to them directly from God. They will be brought before rulers and kings to speak these words. The words will be so powerful that no one will be able to contradict them. They will be hated by all the nations during this time, and it will probably be because of the words of God they are speaking. And even though some of them will be killed, Jesus assures them that not a hair on their head will be lost. Some of this sounds a lot like the experience of the two witnesses, but not all of it. Do you know of any other Scriptures that match the description of this persecution? It might be difficult to pin down who is doing the persecuting here. There seems to be Jewish elements (synagogues) but also Gentile elements (rulers and kings, prisons). So it could be either one it seems. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Posted by Boki on November 18, 2006, 1:50 pm, in reply to "Re: Olivet Discourse" Jon, It seems to me that Jesus is speaking here of persecution by the Harlot. Although kings are mentioned, I still think this is a persecution before the Antichrist. Don't forget that during this time Harlot controls the beast, so those kings mentioned here might be those kings over which Harlot rules. I think I've found a connection between Olivet prophesy and one Old Testament prophecy. Jesus said that part of this persecution, which will occur before false prophets, wars, famines and pestilences, will be the betrayal inside families: But ye will be delivered up, even by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends, and they will put to death some from among you; (Luk 21:16 Rotherham) Compare it with these verses: Perished is the man of lovingkindness out of the earth, and, upright among men, is there none,—they all, for bloodshed, lie in wait. Every man—for his brother, do they hunt as for one devoted to destruction. Of wickedness with both hands to make sure, the ruler, doth make demand—and the judge—for a recompense,—and, as for the great man, he, is putting into words the desire of his soul, So have they woven the net! The best of them, is as a sharp briar, and, the most upright, worse than a thorn hedge, The day of thy watchmen—of thy visitation, hath come, Now, shall be their confusion! Do not trust in a friend, do not put confidence in an associate,—from her that lieth in thy bosom, keep thou the doors of thy mouth; For, the son, treateth as foolish, the father, and, the daughter, riseth up against, her mother, the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law,—The foes of a man, are the men of his own house. (Mic 7:2-6 Rotherham) We can see in later verses that the consequence of such moral degradation is the punishment and humiliation(reminds allot of punishment of the Harlot) but at the end the salvation: Do not rejoice, O mine enemy, against me, Though I fall, I shall rise again! Though I sit in darkness, Yahweh, is a light to me. The indignation of Yahweh, will I bear, for I have sinned against him,—until he take up my controversy, then will he do me justice, he will bring me forth to the light, I shall behold his righteousness. (Mic 7:8-9 Rotherham) Punishment arrives because there is no more good fruit in the basket, all people are sinful:

sinful: Alas for me! for I am become as gatherings of summer fruit, as gleaning-grapes in harvest, there is no cluster to eat, the first ripe fruit, my soul, craved. (Mic 7:1 Rotherham) I think this sets up that persecution before the Great Tribulation, because this tribulation is the consequence of sins of Israel, especially the sins of Jerusalem, which were in the past always greater than sins of all other parts of Israel: Nor did Samaria commit lone-half thy sins,— But thou didst multiply thine abominations more than they, And didst cause thy sisters to appear righteous I by all the abominations which thou didst commit. (Eze 16:51 Rotherham) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted by Jon on November 19, 2006, 4:47 am, in reply to "Re: Olivet Discourse" Boki, While you did find a Scripture that sounds similar, I'm thinking that at this point it's not exactly a concrete thing. Therefore, perhaps we will need to settle for TWO chronological timelines instead of one. Both timelines will be similar from the rising of false christs and prophets onward, but one will begin with the abomination of desolation, while the other will begin with the persecution of the saints. Here's how they will look:

1) Abomination of desolation 2) Days of vengeance 3) Times of the Gentiles 4) Great tribulation 5) False christs and false prophets

1) Persecution and martyrdom 2) Testimony to nations 3) Betrayal and hatred 4) False christs and false prophets

This way, it doesn't matter whether the persecution or the abomination of desolation came first. We can figure that out for sure later and merge these two timelines into one at that point. But for now these two timelines, in and of themselves, will be chronologically correct.

themselves, will be chronologically correct. So since we're leaving it that way for the moment, let's concentrate instead on what comes AFTER the rising of the false christs and false prophets. Hopefully we'll have more luck merging these two timelines into one. Here's what we have to work with:

1) WARS And you will hear of wars and commotions and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled or terrified; for all these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 2) LAWLESSNESS And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 3) NATURAL CATASTROPHES And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; 4) HEAVENLY SIGNS and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. All these are the beginning of sorrows. 5) GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM PREACHED And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

1) SIGNS IN THE HEAVENS Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, 2) SIGNS ON THE EARTH and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 3) SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 4) ELECT GATHERED And then He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.

Now, after looking at this list of items, it almost seems that everything is already in the right order, and that there's no overlapping. The second to last item from the

the right order, and that there's no overlapping. The second to last item from the first section talks about signs in the heavens, and that's how the second section begins. The only item that seems to possibly be out of place is the gospel being preached to all nations before the end comes. Now that I have more time to think about it, I'm thinking that this would take place BEFORE the signs in the heaven. If you think about the reference to the angel in Revelation who preached the gospel to the world, it's almost like the last chance before the boom gets lowered. Not long after that, you start seeing all the signs of Christ's approaching. We can still place it a little higher on the list. The only item that it can't come before is the reference to lawlessness. So I'm thinking that we should move it up to either being right after the section about lawlessness (where it was to begin with), or after the natural catastrophes. What do you think? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~