Memo Of State Department Ig Interview Of Consular Officer Who Issued Visas To Two 9/11 Hijackers

9/11 Working-level Employee

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SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED

\\ OF STATE \\ STATES INFORMATION AGENCY \e of Inspector General

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Memorandum of Conversation 1

Visas for the 9/11 Hijackers

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Subject

PIG. 7th Floor. SA-39

2/3/03

Office

Date

Norfaert Kriee & Kris McMinn Official

Inspector

Mr. Krieg stated that the purpose of the interview was to respond to a congressional request that OIG repbrt on visa issuance to the 9/1-1 terrorist hijackers. He added that OIG will protect the identities of the adjudicators and that OIG's response will not single out specific individuals. Ms.-Sharon L. Papp, General Counsel of the American Foreign Service Association, accompanied! I at the latter's request.! Iread the questions for the visa adjudicators given to him and answered them as follows. 1. For the record, please tell me your name, present rank and position.

; 2. Were you the officer (or consular associate) who issued nonimmigrant visas to (names of \) on (dates) at (name of post)? | examined the computerized visafilesof Nawal M S Al Hazrni who was issued an NTV on 4/3/99 at Jeddah, and Kalid M A Al Mihdhar who was issued an NTV on 4/7/99 at Jeddah.) I do not remember these specific applicants. However, based on my review of the computerized application information it appears that I issued the subject visas. 3. Is this a copy of their applications? (Copies of the two applications (OF-156) were not available.) /

If no application is available, then why is ii not available? I do not know why the records do not exist. I assume that if the applications were destroyed, the practice was consistent with State procedures in place at the time for all NTV applications. 4. Did you check the CLASS lookout system for his name, and what were the results?

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SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED I do not remember if I checked CLASS for these two applicants; however, based on my review of the computerized records, it appears I did check the CLASS system. 5. Did you interview this individual prior to issuing the visa? As I stated, I do not specifically recall these applicants, and, absent the OF-156,1 have no way of verifying whether or not I interviewed the subject applicants.

6. Ifnot,whyn6t? At the time, the policy in Jeddah (as well as in Riyadh) was to "interview by exception." Applicants were only interviewed if there was some indication of a problem. For example, if the applicant was affiliated with the government or if by their dress they appeared to be an extremist. All first time applicants for student visas were also interviewed. This left more time for officers to deal with questionable applicants. This policy was instituted in about August 1998, a month after I arrived. 7. What was the policy at post regarding personal appearance waivers? If, by the applicant's dress, they appeared to a religious extremist the applicant would be interviewed. 8. How were you informed of this policy? In writing? Orally? By whom? Initially, my supervisor provided guidance orally. Later, I developed standard operating procedure on this policy, though I do not know what ever became of it 9. Were you personally given any instructions by your supervisors or superiors about asking applicants to appear in person for an interview? Yes, by the head of the consular section. 10. Did a travel agency submit the case? No. Although we discussed using of travel agencies, they were not used while I was at post. 11. If so, what was the policy at post regarding travel agency procedures? N/A 12. How were you informed of this policy? In writing? Orally? By whom? N/A 13. Would a personal interview of this applicant have helped you decide his eligibility for a visa, and why?

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SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED No. A personal interview would most likely not made a difference. There is a misperception in the media that if the hijackers were interviewed, they would have been denied visas. In Saudi Arabia, the vast majority of applicants were legitimate travelers. It was not uncommon for young Saudi males to travel on vacation or to study in the U.S. for a month or so. This was even considered the "cultural norm" or a "rite of passage". If the applicant's story was consistent with these reasons for traveling, there was no reason to believe the applicant would be a problem. 14. If you interviewed this individual, what details can you recall? I do not recall these specific cases. 15. Did he present any documents in support of his application? I do not recall any documents. 16. If so, can you recall any details of the documents that were presented? The officers in Jeddah did not routinely ask for any specific documentation from Saudi NTV applicants. Other TCN applicants were required to provide documentation that might have included a bank statement, proof of hotel reservations or plane tickets. 17. What specific elements obtained from the interview or the application convinced you that this applicant was entitled to a visa? I do not recall these specific cases. 18. Did you have sufficient time to conduct the interview or review the application to your satisfaction? If not, how much time would you have preferred? Again, I have no recollection of these specific applicants. In general, the interviews conducted were brief by necessity to manage the workload. Applicants with problems had longer interviews. 19. If there were sufficient consular officers at post to conduct personal interviews of every visa applicant, would there have been sufficient interview windows, work space and support staff? At the time, interview facilities were not adequate. Officers operated in doublewide trailers with a hard line installed. There were three tiny windows and each interview space was about 5 feet wide. Officers had to shout at applicants because of the bulletproof glass and the ambient noise from the waiting room. A new consular annex has since been added. 20. What other elements would have helped you make a better decision regarding the applicant's eligibility for a visa and why? Of course hindsight is 20/20 vision. Maybe I could have elicited a negative reaction during an interview that might have caused me to deny a visa. Specific or general information from the

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SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED intelligence community would have been helpful. We received no terrorist warnings, either from the CLASS visa lookout system or from other colleagues at the post or the embassy. 21. Did your superiors ever discuss the post's NTV refusal rates in general with you? Yes. Monthly reports and statistics were discussed routinely. There was a disparity in the refusal rate of Third Country Nationals (TCNs) and Saudi applicants. More TCNs were denied visas. This is because historical knowledge had shown problems with TCN applicants. I was never ever told, however, to issue more visas to Saudis. 22. Did your superiors ever counsel you to raise or lower your own refusal rate? No. 23. Did you or anyone in the consular section conduct NW return validation studies? If not, why not? Yes. Saudis and TCN applicants were put on a callback list. An FSN in the NIV unit performed callbacks 60-90 days after the applicant was to return. Results showed that a number of TCNs overstayed, though I cannot recall the exact percentage. TCNs were much more of an immigration problem than the Saudis. I do not recall a single case of a Saudi visa recipient trying to adjust status. TCNs routinely attempted to adjust their status. I also cannot recall a single case of a Saudi overstaying his or her visa. To the best my knowledge, there were no specific studies focusing on Saudi applicants. There was no visa waiver program in Saudi Arabia at the time only because the Saudis did not want to reciprocally waive visas U.S. citizens visiting their country. 24. How well did you speak and read Arabic? I received a 2+ in speaking and a 2 in reading at FSI. 25. Did the Department train you in this language? I took 2 years of Arabic in a university and received a three-month brush up course at FSI. 26. Do you consider that the training you received in the Department to carry out your visa adjudication responsibilities was adequate? Not entirely. I would have liked more language training. The ConGen course was heavy on theory and light on the day-to-day operations of a consular section. Aside from the consular course, I had no specific training on interview techniques that might have helped to detect terrorists. We consular officer were reasonably attuned to the need for due diligence and the realities of visa work. I recall flagging two very suspicious cases involving Sudanese TCNs. There was no overlap with my predecessor and that would have been very useful.

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SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFBED 27. If not, what additional training would have enabled you to do a better job? More language training and training in interview techniques would have been marginally helpful to identify terrorists provided there was a shift in the "interview by exception" policy. However, even if the policy changed, terrorists would probably adapt by developing better interviewing techniques. We were really dependent on the CLASS lookout system to point out potential terrorists. 28. What other comments would you like to make at this time regarding this visa case? The officers did the best they could given the visa policy which made sense at that time. I am concerned about the media's portrayal of the State Department's role in issuing visas to the hijackers. I do not think that conducting more or longer interviews would necessarily have stopped the hijackers from getting into the U.S.

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