Jaeger Vol 3 Ch 2 Ch 3 N Oswynn Rdg Notes

Jaeger Vol 3 ch 2 Read for 5364; notes from a print out of scanned text; relocate page numbers

Rivals rhetoric and philosophy are rooted in poetry (46)

for Isocrates, rhetoric was the best solution to the post-Periclean age

Discussion and persuasion as a way to handle all of the chaos.

Isocrates sought, like platonic Socrates, to "initiate much-needed reformation in some other way than by entering an active career as an orator in the assemblies and the law courts."

Consider using the above in terms of addressing/ applying paideia or expanding it outside of the schools and working in non-traditional environments of gyms, dojos, etc.

"The new rhetoric had to find an ideal which could be ethically interpreted and which at the same time could be translated into practical political action."

In Isocrates, form and content were inseperable.

Isocrates attacked philosophers for not trusting their own students. "Perfect eloquence must be the individual expression of a single critical moment, a kairos, and its highest law is that it should be wholly appropriate. Only by observing these two rules can it succeed in being new and original."

Note this in order to attempt to improve my own work.

"Naturally, Isocrates' view of the educational value of rhetoric is defined by this conception of its true character. Being an act of creation, oratory in its highest ranges cannot possibly be taught like a school subject. And yet he holds that it can be employed to educate young men: because of his own peculiar view of the relation between the three factors which, according to the pedagogic theories of the sophists, are the foundation of all education. They are: (1) talent, (2) study, and (3) practice."

This could be compared to martial arts training--how similar are current teachers/schools in their applications? How distant? Has much changed?

"For Iscorates, the real difficulty of rhetoric is in the "right choice, commixture, and placing of the 'ideas' on each subject, in the selection of the correct moment, in the good taste and appropriateness with which the speech is decorated with enthymemes, and in the rhythmic and musical disposition of the words."

Use the above for me. Refer to these writing tips again.

"Here, the general Greek idea, that education is the process by which the whole man is shipaed, is enunciated independently of Plato, and variously expounded in such imagery as 'model' or 'patttern', 'stamp', 'imitate.' The real problem is how this process of 'shaping' can be converted from a beautiful image into a practical reality--that is, what is to be the method of forming the human character, and ultimately what is the nature of the human intellect."

Greeks on education as interpreted by Jaeger. Important

"For him [Isocrates], rhetorical training is worked out simply by Opinion, not by Knowledge. But he frequently claims that the intellect possesses an aesthetic and practical faculty which, without claiming absolute knolwedge, can still choose the right means and the right end. His whole conception of culture is based on that aesthetic power."

I am not sure what to do with this, but it seems important.

"The superiority of rhetoric, as Isocrates conceives it, is that it is entirely political culture. All that it has to do to attain spiritual leadership in the state is to find a new approach to life and its problems."

Jaeger Vol 3 Ch 3

Read for 5364 Print out of scan Need to get page numbers

Jaeger defines rhetoric: "RHETORIC is, to begin with, an instrument of practical politics. But as soon as it is able to formulate ideals of statesmanship, it becomes the representative of a political form of culture."

Useful to have a collection of definitions of rhetoric. Interesting that it is inherently linked to politics.

"Again and again, Isocrates stresses the point that for the speaker or writer everything depends on the greatness of the subject with which he has to deal."

Note the above; put into a collection of writing tips/notes. This could also be used in an FYC course. It is a good way to focus on the topic and the interesting, or not, nature of the materials.

For Isocrates, the subject of rhetoric had to always be political, i.e. centered on the polis, the community, and that which helped or hurt the community.

"The new partnership between culture and awakening national sentiment is immortalized in the Panegyrics of Isocrates."

"It is his [Isocrates'] faith in the unique mission of Athenian culture that is triumphant in his philosophy of history, and above all in his interpretation of hte legendary past. Isocrates' nationalistic ideology (in which Athens is the founder of all civilization), along with all the other ideas implicit in his paideia, was later taken over by humanism as part of its general view of history."

In short, it appears that humanists swallowed Isocrates vision/view of Athens as the source of civilization. Given the current acceptance and roots of this in western culture, he appears to have been quite successful. "It is deeply interesting to see how Isocrates again and again conceives the essence of culture as a purposeless intellectual and spiritual activity--an ideal parallel to that of the gymnastic contests. Rhetoric does not define; it represents, through contrast and comparison. And so, although rhetoricians constantly extol its pracical usefulness for the community, its real meaning continues to be epideixis--the speaker's display of his own intellectual powers: an activity of which no barbarian ever feels himself in need."

Another definition of rhetoric. The role of culture. It is interesting that it is the process of culture, not the end result, which has the emphasis. Similarly, it is interesting that the emphasis excludes the physical.

"Every useful attempt to raise the condition of mankind, whatever be its content, must take its form from language; and so the logos, in its double sense of 'speech' and 'reason', becomes for Isocrates the symbolon, the 'token' of culture. That was a happy conception: it assured rhetoric of its place, and made the rhetorician the truest representative of culture."

Western emphasis on importance of rhetor/language?

Quote from Isocrates: "'The man who shares our paideia is a Greek in a higher sense than he who only shares our blood."

"But he [Isocrates] believes that intellectual nationalism is nobler than racial nationalism."

"In fact, that ideal contains a higher justification for the new national imperialism, in that it identifies what is specifically Greek with what is universally human. This is not actually said by Isocrates; and some may object to our interpretation. But the only meaning that can possibly be given to the universal exaltation of Greek paideia which fills Isocrates' thought is this: the Greeks, through the logos, over which they naturally have command, have revealed to other nations a principle which they too must recognize and adopt because its value is independent of race--the idea of paideia, of culture."

Murray Read this article for 5364 in relation to Isocrates.

Murray attempts to link Jaeger and his book on Paideia to the rise of Hitler. Weak discussion, weak proof.

Acknowledges duality/dualism of classical tradition: "Here it seems is the ultimate meaning of the ancient quarrel between thetoric and philosophy; for the classical tradition has a double heritage of conformism and liberation, embodied in these two traditions. We can construct any view of the relation between education and power out of selective use of the past. But in brining the past to bear on the present we must be careful of what we are doing: what future do we want?"

Mentions a call to the classics like a religious experience.

Asserts that "the idea that the study of the classics was once widespread elsewhee [not in Italy] is an exaggeration: only perhaps in the period from 1850 to 1914 was this even remotely true for most western countries."

While riffing on the specialized knowledge necessary to study the classics: "Yet there is a dangerous confusion here: because special knowledge is required to understand a discipline, that does not imply that the discipline is necessarily a secret in the possession of a group of the elect. Skill may be difficult and confined to a small group, without in any way creating secret knolwedge with a higher status."

Classical tradition as providing both access to esoteric truths and as being a weapon against orthodoxy.

"In the 21st century, when most forms of intellectual persecution are at least temporarily in abeyance, our answer to this question of the continuing purpose of the classical tradition must be to consider how far its traditional function as a counter-culture is still useful; in what should that counte-culture consist, and how can we distinguish it from the idea of an esoteric sect with secret wisdom?"

"The advantage of the humanist tradition is that it has a wide range of influence on action, and sufficient flexibility to engender new solutions from within its intellectual framework." "Similarly, we do not passively recieve that which is handed on to us. A living tradition works like influence: it is we who take from the past, not the past which dictates to us. And a living tradition will therefore always and wilfully reinterpret the past, shape it to its own expectations and needs. For such reasons I do not believe that the future of humanism is in any danger at all."

Potential uses: Role of humanities in 21st century for broad overview Apply last quote to the application of paideia and expanding it beyond the traditional notion of school reform (20th century) Value of dual traditions, tensions between rhet/phil and esoteric vs. counter-culture mirrors Lanham's notions of oscillation