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Marifah Forums > Islamic Sciences - Advanced > Manhaj Ahl al-Sunnah wa-l Jamā‘ah

The Difference Between Deobandis and Barelwis, Shaykh Yusuf Ludhyanwi Hamoudeh

Options Post #1

Mar 14 2008, 09:03 PM

QUOTE(h-adam @ Mar 11 2008, 05:54 AM) al-Halabi

Group: Marifah-A Posts: 3,065 Joined: 17-September 04 Member No.: 1 Gender: Brother Madhhab: Hanafi

I hereby wish to post a link concerning the differences between us the deobandiyah and the barielwiyah as addressed by my ustaazul mukarram Shaheed Ml yousuf ludhyanwi rahimahullah in his book differences of the ummah concerning this issue. May ALLAH guide us to that which pleases Him ameen. Please read from page 17 onwards. http://jaamiahamidia.files.wordpress.com/2...nvi-shaheed.pdf

Assalamu `Alaykum Shaykh Adam Amin. JazzakumAllah khayr for pointing this out to us, and sharing this insightful work by Shaykh Ludhyanwi rahimahullah. I have read some of it before, and some of the chapter you point out afterwards. Perhaps we should begin at the beginning. Shaykh Ludhyanwi says:

3). THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE DEOBANDIS AND BARELWIS The third difference regarding which you have requested of me is that between the Deobandis and Barelwis, and you wanted to know which of these two are treading the path of Haqq. To me the phrase “Deobandi-Barelwi difference” is surprising and odd. You have already heard that the difference between the Sunnis and Shiahs stemmed from the acceptance (of the one group) and rejection (by the other) of the Sahaabah-e-Kiraam (radhiAllaahu anhum) and that the difference between the Hanafis and Wahaabis originated from the following or not of the Aimmah-e-Mujtahiddeen. However, according to my knowledge there is no sound basis for any difference between the Deobandis and Barelwis. The reason being that both these groups are passionate followers of the Hanafi Math-hab. In so far as Aqaa`id both these groups accept and follow the teachings of Imaam Abul Hasan Ash`ari and Imaam Abu Mansoor Maaturidi (rahmatullahi alaihima). Both these groups accept and take ba`it to all four Silsilahs of Tasawwuf, viz. Qaadiri, Chisti, Saharwardi and Naqshbandi. In short, both these groups are in all respects followers of the Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaat. They also acknowledge to and accept the reverence of the Sahaabah, Tabieen and Aimmah-e-Mujtahiddeen. They are Muqallids of Hadhrat Imaam Abu Hanifah (rahmatullahi alaih) and accept the authority right up to Mujaddid Alfe Thaani and Shah Abdul Azeez Muhaddith Dehlwi (rahmatullahi alaihima). They all also accept that being subservient to the Auliyaa of Allaah Ta`ala is the means of salvation in both the worlds. Therefore, in my opinion there is no real and genuine basis for any differences between theses two groups. I do not refute the contention that there exists between these two groups some differences in a few Masaa`il. I will hereunder present the authentic Shar`i view in the light of the Qur`aan Majeed, Sunnah and Hanafi Fiqh of the Masaa`il wherein they differ, without making reference to any one of the two groups in particular. There are a few enquiries I would like to make regarding the above text, insha'Allah I will be able to do that shortly and hopefully we can then further them. Insightful comments by any other brothers on the text in question is much appreciated as well. BarakAllah fikum. Wassalamu `alaykum wa-rahmatullah

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The Difference Between Deobandis and Barelwis - Marifah Forums

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h-adam

Mar 15 2008, 06:32 AM

Post #2

Wa alaykom salam wa rahmatullah May ALLAH keep you happy and grant you the best of both this world and the hereafter. ameen!! Group: Scholars Posts: 15 Joined: 18-November 07 Member No.: 511 Gender: Brother Madhhab: Hanafi

Just one comment to make concerning the titles of bareilwi.deobandi. These are actually names of two cities in the U.P. province of India and because of the two opposing institutes being in them, those who affiliate themselves to the ideologies are therefore called so. To point out the difference between the two ( i have heard from a famous scholar concerning the two) is that the one emphasize on tawheed of ALLAH SUBHAANAHU WA TA'AALA while the other emphasize on risala of sayyyidil kownain Muhammadur Rasulullah sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam. The difference actually occurs in the "ifraat and tafreet" concerning risala which causes the contentious issues.

Attari

Mar 17 2008, 02:17 AM

Post #3

Actually Yusuf Ludhianwi's explanation is extremely simplistic and draconian. It suffices to explain the differences between Deobandis and Barelwis "common man", which in both cases is your everyday average Hanafi with a common person's level of knowledge and practice. Group: Marifah-T Posts: 26 Joined: 29-February 08 Member No.: 2,348 Gender: Brother Madhhab: Hanafi

At an ideological and scholarly level there ARE great and huge differences between the two and to understand which, knowledge of proper and scholarly Urdu is an absolute MUST. They're not many in number but great and huge in their magnanimity. It is not as simplistic as one focuses on tawheed and the other focuses on respecting and sanctifying the risaalah. The Barelwis scholars have been [wrongly] dozing off in presenting their case in recent years and the Deobandis have succeeded in convincing the Ahlus-Sunnah scholars of the Arab world there are no points of difference between Barelwis and Deobandis. Outside of the subcontinent, that might even be true in many cases. However, inside the subcontinent, this issue is far deeper and serious and has a totally different flavour. The subcontinent is where this issue can be seen and understood at a grassroots level- EVEN today. To pass an opinioin or judgement on an issue, both sides of the story need to be properly analyzed. If someone wants to see the Barelwi side of the story, at a root cause level in the subcontinent, they need to get in touch with Mazharul Uloom, Bareily, India or Raza Academy, Mumbai, India and ask them WHY is it that the Barelvis are so ferociously anti-Deobandi, or contact Sheikh Shah Turab-ul-Haq Qadiri in Pakistan ... his institute's contacts can be found on www.ahlesunnat.net OR contact Sheikh Kaukab Okarvi from Pakistan. Those are some of the top authorities on the Barelwi wing in the world today. Certainly, if the issue really is a non-issue, it shouldnt take that long to resolve it- right?! Why is it that for a 100 odd years these 2 sides have been ferociously against each other and the Barelvis more adamantly against compromise than the Deobandis. I admit, in the subcontinent, BOTH Barelvi-ism and Deobandi-ism are "industries" run by their respective "scholars" in the current times, pretty much how Islam is treated by a lot of the so called "scholars" in current times regardless of sect, illaa ma shaa Allah, barring a few good men. But that isn't the reason that THIS discord exists. If I present an opinion, it will be biased as I am on the Barelwi side of the fence, as is visible. So I will stop my post here. All I will say is that: 1) there is no smoke without a fire. There is a reason why this dispute exists. 2) Why is it that almost ALL of the people flogging the "we're all one big happy Hanafi family" point of view ALWAYS are Deobandis or their "neutral" supporters, like Yusuf Ludhianwi and others?! Think about it and investigate the reason for it. Sure one or 2 Barelwis might have an ego the size of Empire state building, but its impossible for ALL the scholars of a particular sect to be of the same attitude. The law of averages would dictate that if there are a few on the Deobandi side who are interested in reconciliation, then there have to be a few on the Barelwi side as well- BTW I am talking at an "ideological and scholarly" level. As I mentioned above, at a common man level, its pretty much an average common Hanafi person on both sides. Its just simple statistical analysis that if theres some scholars from the Deobandis who want to make nice, there's got to be some from the other side too. BUT that is not the case. The Barelwis are adamant against reconciliation with the Deobandis. Theres a reason for it.

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Actually, they're ready for reconciliation right now. It only requires Deobandis to categorically make a few statements in regards to certain topics on aqaid that ALL Ahlus Sunnah world wide agree to, including their own leader, Haji Imdadullah Muhajir Makki rahimahullah, the TEACHER of the elders of Deoband, whom the Barelvis agree with and respect and always add rahmatullahi alaih in front of his name.

-------------------Lau naasabat qadrahu aayaatuhu 3izdhaman; Ahyasmuhu heena yud3aa daarisar rimami! If his (alaihis salam) miracles were proportionates to his greatness; Merely his name would have, when called, brought decaying bones back to life! (Al-Burda, Ch 3)

absalih

Today, 08:19 PM

Post #4

Happy Miladu Nabi to everyone There are 2 Non Muslim LADY authors who had done research works on the 2 movements of Deobandi &Barelwi and it wiil be interesting to read their books and see how they analyze the 2 sects Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 10-November 07 From: MALABAR.KERALA.INDIA Member No.: 486 Gender: Brother Madhhab: Shafi`i

1] Islamic Revival in British India: Deoband. 1860-1900 by-Barbara Daly Metcalf Princeton University Press. New Jersey https://www.vedamsbooks.com/no53085.htm 2] Devotional Islam and Politics in British India: Ahmad Riza Khan Barelwi and His Movement, 1870-1920. 2nd edition. New York and Delhi: Oxford University Press, 1999. BY-Dr.Usha sanyal http://www.ushasanyal.org/ http://www.ushasanyal.org/wst_page4.html

absalih

Post #5

Today, 10:35 PM

Shaykh Ludyanavi's comments on Hazir & Nazir of Rasul.saws & Awliya as Kufr &shirk[page-20-ibid-pdf file as follows If the ascribers to the belief of haazir-o-naazir aver that it means that after the demise of Nabi (sallAllaahu alaihi wasallam) his blessed soul was granted the permission to roam freely, then this does not establish his being haaziroGroup: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 10-November 07 From: MALABAR.KERALA.INDIA Member No.: 486 Gender: Brother Madhhab: Shafi`i

naazir. In Pakistan (and every other country) the citizens are allowed to go anywhere in the country they please, so does this consent imply that every citizen of Pakistan is haazir-o-naazir? If a person has the permission to go to a certain place does not imply that this person is present at that place. Besides this, if one avers regarding a certain place (for example say Karachi) that Nabi (sallAllaahu alaihi wasallam) is present there, then this is such a claim which warrants proof. This is such a claim which has no basis in the Shariah, hence to make such a claim and hold such a belief without citing any proof is not correct. Some insane people do not only hold this belief regarding Nabi (sallAllaahu alaihi wasallam), they believe that many Auliyaa are haazir-o-naazir. I am astonished at the „generosity‟ of such people. They are so liberal with the Attributes of Allaah Ta`ala that they share it out freely amongst the creation! Nevertheless, this intrepidity and audaciousness is totally unacceptable to the Aimmah of the Ahle Sunnah. It is stated in Fataawa Bazaazia: “Our Ulama state that whoever avers that the souls of the Mashaaikh are present and listening has committed KUFR.” [Footnote of Aalimgiri, page 326, vol.6] INDIRECT ANSWER BY a NON-BARELWI Hanafi scholar Sayyed ABDUL HAKIM ARWASI.Rah died 1362 AH.One of the greatest scholars of the last years of OTTOMANS.Istanbul,TURKEY, as translated by his disciple Huseyn Hilmi Isik.Rah.It does quote the same source as Fatawa Bazaazia. It begins as 32 - A LETTER ABOUT THE PRESENCE OF SOULS This letter was written by Sayyid Abdulhakim Arwasi 'rahmatullahi 'alaih'. It explains how the souls of Awliya will come to one's help everywhere: Dear Ali Bey, my brother in both worlds! I have received your last letter. It has pleased me very much. I have added my salams to my benedictions over you. In an utterly beautiful manner you asked a question at the end of your letter. Question: It is written in Baba Dagi, which is the translation of the book Halabi, and in Birghiwi Vasiyetnamesi, [and in

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the fatwa of Bazaziyya,] "If a person says that the souls of Awliya are present here, he becomes a disbeliever." On the other hand, the saying, "The soul of our master is present and overlooking here," is famous among men of tasawwuf. How can these two words be reconciled? ANSWER:--------[ In a NUTSHELL-It is " Allahu ta'ala, being Hayy, 'Alim, Qadir and Mutakallim, always exists and always sees in infinite time. As His Attributes, Life, Knowledge, Power and Speech are without time and without place, so His being present and overlooking is without time and without place. So is the case with all the attributes of Allahu ta'ala. Neither before them nor after them is there nonexistence. For example, He is present, and He was not absent before this presence. And after this there will not be a lifelessness, that is, death, or unawareness, nor will there be absence. Like Him, His attributes are eternal in the past and in the future, too. That is, they always exist. No one else's attributes are like His attributes. Angels, the souls of prophets 'alaihimussalam' and of Awliya, and the souls of pious Muslims are present at any place where they are summoned to, no matter who calls them, where and in what state he is, and they help him. An example of this is Hadrat Khizir's going to the rescue of those who are in trouble. So is the case with Fakhr-i alam's 'sall- Allahu alaihi wa sallam' going to the rescue of each of his Ummat, especially at the time of death. So is the case with Hadrat Azrail's reaching everywhere every moment in order to take away the souls [lives]. And so is the case with each Murshid-i kamil's reaching to rescue his disciples; these are with time and place and they are not eternal in the past or in the future. Nor are they continuous. They were nonexistent before being present. And they will cease to exist after a while. There is a great difference between Allah's being present and souls' being present. No one is present like Allah's being present. So are all the attributes of Allahu ta'ala. Neither an angel nor a nabi nor a Rasul nor a Wali nor a pious Muslim has any share from any of Allah's attributes. "-See the fuull article in the link http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Endless_Bliss_T...e/bliss3_32.htm This post has been edited by absalih: Today, 11:02 PM

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