Sacraments Dead

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OnlyByGrace

Sacraments for the Departed

Registered User Posts: 177 (1/8/02 10:12 pm) Reply

Direct from the Question and Answer Book === Can God's Acts of the Covenant also be administered to the departed? God will have all men to be saved ( 1Tim 2:4 ), and Christ is Lord both of the dead and living ( Romans 14:9 ). After his death, He Himself proceeded into the realms of the departed to preach the Gospel unto them ( Ephesians 4:8-10; 1Peter 3:18-20 ), in other words, to bring unto them the doctrine of salvation, and to lead them further into knowledge. From the intimate connection of circumstances of both the dead and the living at all times, we know that we can intercede on their behalf before God ( 2Maccabees 12:39-46; Luke 14:12-14; Revelation 6:9-11 ), so that they too may be saved. If it is possible for them to grasp the message of salvation, God will advance with them ( John 5:25) and moreover admit them to the Acts of the Covenant, which are administered to living vessels who act as deputies for the departed ( 1Corinth 15:29 ).

kevin579

Registered User Posts: 601 (1/9/02 8:41) Reply Paul

Unregistered User (1/9/02 9:17) Reply

Re: Sacraments for the Departed

Thak you, very well said. Kevin well said?

Kevin? What is "well said"? This is a direct quote from the Q&A!!! Hang on, here is another quote for you:Q&A 304: What are experiences of faith? "Experiences of faith are wonderful occurrences, which are granted ONLY to those who in OBEDIENCE of FAITH heed the word of Gods messengers. It is TO THESE EXPERIENCES that they owe their knowledge, that God is INDEED ACTIVE IN HIS SERVANTS. Experience of faith, therefore, are not to be confused with so-called prayers which are heard, and which can be obtained by any believing person who prays to God seriously and for a definate purpose" _____ O.K. so we know who are "God's messengers in the NAC. So the above quotation actually says that an "experience of faith" can only be considered as such IF THIS EXPERIENCE SHOWS YOU THAT GOD IS INDEED ACTIVE IN HIS APOSTLES. And you can ONLY get it if you are OBEDIENT in FAITH to the Apostles, otherwise it cannot be considered an "experience of faith" Let's hear a "well said" from you on this one...

JF ez

Registered User Posts: 582 (1/9/02 11:25) Reply | Edit

Spiritual Resurrection In Your Lifetime

JOHN 5:25 Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they who hear shall live. Here, IMO, by the "dead" are meant such who are “spiritually” dead in trespasses and sins; who are separated from God, alienated from the life of God, and in whom the image of God is defaced; who are dead in all the powers and faculties of their souls, to that which is spiritually good; and are

without spiritual breath, sense, feeling, and motion. May His voice reach the hearts of those “dead in sin”; that they may do “works meet for repentance”, and prepare for the solemn day. BTW, do NAC members not believe in a “spiritual resurrection” in their lifetime? JFGNJ

Unregistered User (1/9/02 12:47) Reply

Not faith in the Apostles

Paul I will gladly give you a well said except for where you state the following And you can ONLY get it if you are OBEDIENT in FAITH to the Apostles, The obedience of faithis not to the apostle you are misinterpreting what is said Obedience in faith is to our heavenly father only not the apostle. But one form of obedience in faith to our heavenly father is Heeding the word of god given through the Apostles. Note: Defenition of Heed from Websters To look to or after; to regard with care; to notice. To mind; to consider. Care, attention, regard. And yes this describes an experience of faith. basic defenition imho Doing something that if thought of in wordly terms makes no sense. Yet when done produces results that could only be a result of our heavenly fathers blessing. Easy example to prove Offering leads out of poverty not offering leads into poverty. Have proven this both ways in my life Makes zero sense wether it be a financial offering or an offering given through laboring in the lords work. But it works

Bystander

Unregistered User (1/9/02 13:03) Reply

not just apostles

"But one form of obedience in faith to our heavenly father is Heeding the word of god given through the Apostles." I believe that the word of God is also given through non-NAC ministers (with or without the "apostle" designation) and that their words are to be heeded as well.

Karl N

Registered User Posts: 297 (1/9/02 15:17) Reply OnlyByGrace

Registered User Posts: 180 (1/10/02 2:10) Reply

Bring on ye dead

Can OBG please explain the verses quote from the Q&A.

Explanation of Verses

1 Timothy 2:4 "... who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" From the previous verse it can be seen that Paul is speaking of God, and he is pointing out that God wishes all men to be saved ... eg to receive salvation via the sacrifice of Christ. Ephesians 4:8-10 "Therefore He says: 'When he ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.' (Now this, 'He ascended' - what does it mean but that He also FIRST descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) In the previous verses Apostle Paul is writing about the nature of the Lord and of Christ and of the Holy Spirit, and that (similar to the above verse) "to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift" and he continues with verse 8 to explain that when Jesus ascended into heaven, the captivity of sin was broken. He further explained that Jesus first went to "the lower parts of the earth" which we interpret as being "hell" or "hades" or in NACspeak the realms of the departed. We will discuss this more with the next verse. 1 Peter 3:18-20 "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but mad alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison ..." Connecting this with the aforementioned verse, we can see that the Apostles of the first sending shared the belief that Jesus preached the gospel of salvation to the departed in the realms of the dead. 1 Peter 4:6 "For the reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit" This verse makes reference to the previous verse by further explaining WHY the dead were preached to by Christ. It is so they also may "live according to God in the spirit" ...... === That's a beginning ... I am getting a little tired as it's almost 1am here .... If you insist, I will also discuss the other verses. ~ JJD ~ Sacraments for the Departed - Q&A for DAKE BOARD

Unregistered User (6/16/02 16:23) Reply

From 1st post -Direct from the Question and Answer Book ===

Can God's Acts of the Covenant also be administered to the departed? God will have all men to be saved ( 1Tim 2:4 ), and Christ is Lord both of the dead and living ( Romans 14:9 ). After his death, He Himself proceeded into the realms of the departed to preach the Gospel unto them ( Ephesians 4:8-10; 1Peter 3:18-20 ), in other words, to bring unto them the doctrine of salvation, and to lead them further into knowledge. From the intimate connection of circumstances of both the dead and the living at all times, we know that we can intercede on their behalf before God ( 2Maccabees 12:39-46; Luke 14:12-14; Revelation 6:9-11 ), so that they too may be saved. If it is possible for them to grasp the message of salvation, God will advance with them ( John 5:25) and moreover admit them to the Acts of the Covenant, which are administered to living vessels who act as deputies for the departed ( 1Corinth 15:29 ). Jeffrey

Unregistered User (6/17/02 12:15) Reply

tncs

Registered User Posts: 91 (6/17/02 12:33) Reply

Advance them?

Shalom UU, "If it is possible for them to grasp the message of salvation, God will advance them." Talking about the dead?- Answer is NO- It is not possible! Next question. (LOOK, most of the "living" on this board DO NOT graspthe message of salvation! Are you so blinded to think that the dead would possibly grasp what you cannot as a living person?). Re: Advance them?

Talking about the dead?- Answer is NO- It is not possible! Why is it NOT possible? Next question. (LOOK, most of the "living" on this board DO NOT graspthe message of salvation! Are you so blinded to think that the dead would possibly grasp what you cannot as a living person?). Why not? What is death but a doorway between worlds? Why did Jesus preach the Gospel after he entered the realms of the dead?

Jeffrey

Unregistered User (6/17/02 13:01) Reply

Jeffrey

Unregistered User (6/17/02 13:13)

Dead Fred!

Fred went to bed with an ache in his head He'd rejected the Savior, and all that He'd said In the morning we checked, and ole Fred was dead! Some cried for they feared his soul was in Hell, But an NAC member said "you never can tell?" "Just meet us next Sunday, and all will go well!" See, we'll have us a service, the "Apostle" will pray He'll open a door He'll find the way So, please do not worry that Fred died in sin We have a teaching, and Fred will get in! "From where comes this teaching?", one person sought. I'm not sure said the member, but it's what we are taught! In the spiritual realm where no one could see A demon was smiling, for the teacher was HE! No Gospel preaching

Shalom tncs, No Gospel for salvation was preached to the Spirits, A proclamation was made but the context of this we are not sure because the

Reply

scriptures do not tell us A proclamation of Christ's victory on the cross but certainly not an offer of salvation. Shalom Alechem

JFGNJ

Double speak

Registered User Posts: 230 (6/17/02 15:33) Reply

I still cannot fathom how in one breath you can make a statement such as this

we are not sure because the scriptures do not tell us then in the next breath say but certainly not an offer of salvation. this is what I call unfounded speculation.

Jeffrey

Unregistered User (6/17/02 17:55) Reply

JFGNJ

Registered User Posts: 238 (6/18/02 13:20) Reply

Fathom, schmathom

Shalom JF, I know you cannot fathom it, that is part of the problem. You cannot understand that a Bible verse may not exclusively tell us what Jesus proclaimed to the spirits but we can certainly BE SURE of some things He did not say, which would be a gospel message of salvation for those who have departed and now can have a second, salvation chance like ole Fred! Shalom Alechem ....

Once again you that is what we call speculation So since were specualting heres my speculation What I can tell you is that Christ would not have wasted his time going to those souls who had gone before to do anything but proclaim the gospel. For anything else would have been useless. Think about it he would go to them and tell them how they all missed out on his sacrifice because of when they were born but now everyone that comes since then they can be saved but to put it bluntly your all screwed. Yeah im sure thats it Christ went there to tell them about something that wasnt accesible to them Geez talk about rubbing their noses in it.

Scholars

Unregistered User (6/18/02 13:38) Reply

Oh, man...

Listen carefully JFGNJ, you MIGHT get it. The spirits were the OT saints who had died BEFORE Christ's blood was shed. No one enters heaven apart from the shed blood of Christ. They were in the good place of Sheol/Hades all those years prior to the Atonement of Christ. Once He died He went to the place of the dead and told the saints that they were now free to go to heaven. He led them there when He ascended to heaven. Consequently, those in the wicked place of the dead also heard Him proclaim the freedom to those who had trusted God. What is this nonsense of rubbing noses in it? Where do you get this stuff?

What page of the NAC Scout Handbook is that on? BrendaP

Administrator Posts: 1125 (6/18/02 14:02) Reply

Re: Oh, man...

Hi Scholar, I'm referring back to our discussion on the "To Scholar" thread. You're saying, the spirits refer to the OT saints. OK. But what about the rest then that never heard of Christ before? Brenda

Scholar

Unregistered User (6/18/02 14:45) Reply

Good question

Hello Brenda, Those who had died as unbelievers before Christ shed His blood, are dead in their sins. Remember, in speaking of Abraham, Genesis 15:6 says, "And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness." Those who believed in the Lord was considered as righteous, and qualified to enter heaven once Christ shed His blood, those who did not believe in the Lord were counted as unrighteous and will never see heaven. Post-atonement of Christ, one needs to make a definite decision for Christ to be saved. If one has not heard the gospel, and has not had the opportunity to respond to it, which I mentioned in a previous post is pretty hard to do because of Romans 1:19-20 ("Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. [20 ] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse") then we have to trust that God is fair in His judgment and would not condemn anyone unfairly. I think we can all rest assured that only those who deserve to be in hell will be in hell. Doesn't that sound reasonable?

BrendaP

Administrator Posts: 1128 (6/18/02 15:39) Reply

Re: Good question

"then we have to trust that God is fair in His judgment and would not condemn anyone unfairly." Yes, it sounds reasonable and that is how I perceive God's love and grace. Brenda

Grace

Unregistered User (6/19/02 2:40) Reply

God's love

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, That saved a wretch like me.... I once was lost but now am found, Was blind, but now, I see. T'was Grace that taught... my heart to fear. And Grace, my fears relieved. How precious did that Grace appear... the hour I first believed. Through many dangers, toils and snares... we have already come. T'was Grace that brought us safe thus far... and Grace will lead us home.

The Lord has promised good to me... His word my hope secures. He will my shield and portion be... as long as life endures. When we've been here a thousand years... bright shining as the sun. We've no less days to sing God's praise... then when we've first begun. "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, That saved a wretch like me.... I once was lost but now am found, Was blind, but now, I see. tncs

Registered User Posts: 111 (6/19/02 4:35) Reply

Re: God's love

Scholar, You said... "Post-atonement of Christ, one needs to make a definite decision for Christ to be saved. If one has not heard the gospel, and has not had the opportunity to respond to it, which I mentioned in a previous post is pretty hard to do because of Romans 1:19-20 ("Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. [20 ] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse") then we have to trust that God is fair in His judgment and would not condemn anyone unfairly. I think we can all rest assured that only those who deserve to be in hell will be in hell. Doesn't that sound reasonable? Yes it does sound reasonable, but I do not understand what your "beef" is with the NAC. ALL NAC members have made a conscious decision to be for Christ. It's just that our interpretation of God's word differs from yours.

mm

Unregistered User (6/19/02 6:50) Reply

Sacraments for departed souls

God will have all men to be saved ( 1Tim 2:4 ), and Christ is Lord both of the dead and living ( Romans 14:9 ). I think that when it is referred to that God wants all men to be saved it refers both to the living (those alive) and the dead (those who have passed on). The dead definitely refers to the ones that are not in this earthly body anymore. This therefore means that there is salvation after death, but not as easy as was mentioned earlier. Those souls must still accept the word of God brought to them by the messengers of peace. They will have to believe in Jesus Christ our Lord and saviour. So, what applies to the living also applies to the dead. To understand more about the departed souls one really needs faith, why??? for faith is the sunstance of things hoped for and the evidence of things NOT SEEN...not all of us can see them, so we have to believe. What is a Departed Service?

Unregistered User (6/20/02 17:26) Reply

What is a Departed Service? A Service where souls from the beyond who have been told and are

willing to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ receive the sacraments by proxy. Existing reborn souls (or as the original Greek actually states - "be/are born from above") receive Holy Communion, I guess the other souls are entitled to this as well. 2. Why do you as a New Apostolic celebrate this day ? Through prophecy and inspiration from the Holy Spirit, the apostles were shown that this is part of God's salvation plan available to all souls seeking grace from the beginning,-when God created man. The totality of the evidence in scripture show that this belief was also practised by early Christians. 3. Is this mentioned in the bible? and where? Ephesians 4 vs 9 "(Now that he ascended, what is but that he also desended first into the lower parts of the earth?..." 1 Peter 3 vs 18 - 20 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which were sometime disobedient, when one the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." 1 Peter 4 vs 6 "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." John 5 vs 25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." John 6 vs 40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one that seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." 1 Corinthians 15 vs 29 "Else what shall they do which are baptised for the dead, if the dead not rise at all? why are they then baptised for the dead?"

John 3 vs 5 - 7 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.......Marvel not that I said unto thee. Ye must be born again." (i.e. - "be born from above") Also in NT Apocrypha, The "Sheperd of Hermes" an explenation is given about the departed souls receiving the sacraments. Hermes was the brother of recognised church father. Many Christians of the time did regard it as scripture, and it formed part of both the oldest near complete manuscripts of the Bible, (New Testament specifically) namely the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, dating from the 4th century. Herewith an extract of his discussion with the "sheperd" or "the angel of repentance". 101:13 `But the stones, Sir,' say I, `that came from the deep, and were fitted into the building, who are they? 101:14 "The first,' saith he, `even the ten, that were placed in the foundations, are the first generation; 101:15 the twenty-five are the second generation of righteous men; 101:16 the thirty-five are God's prophets and His ministers; 101:17 the forty are apostles and teachers of the preaching of the Son of God.' 101:18 `Wherefore then, Sir,' say I, `did the virgins give in these stones also for the building of the tower and carry them through the gate? 101:19 " Because these first,'saith he, 101:20 `bore these spirits, and they never separated the one from the other, neither the spirits from the men nor the men from the spirits, but the spirits abode with them till they fell asleep; 102:1 `Show me still further, Sir,' say I. 102:2 `What desirest thou to know the deep, and wherefore were they placed into the building, though they bore these spirits? 102:3 "It was necessary for them,' saith he, `to rise up through water, that they might be made alive; 102:4 for otherwise they could not enter into the kingdom of God, except

they had put aside the deadness of their [former] life. 102:5 So these likewise that had fallen asleep received the seal of the Son of God and entered into the kingdom of God. 102:6 For before a man,' saith he, `has borne the name of [the Son of] God, he is dead; 102:7 but when he has received the seal, he layeth aside his deadness, and resumeth life. 102:8 The seal then is the water so they go down into the water dead, and they come up alive. 102:9 Thus to them also this seal was preached, and they availed themselves of it that they might enter into the kingdom of God.' 102:10 `Wherefore, Sir,' say I, `did the forty stones also come up with them from the deep, though they had already received the seal?' 102:11 `Because,'saith he, 102:12 `these,the apostles and the teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, after they had fallen asleep in the power and faith of the Son of God, 102:13 preached also to them that had fallen asleep before them, and themselves gave unto them the seal of the preaching. 102:14 Therefore they went down with them into the water, and came up again. 102:15 But these went down alive [and again came up alive]; 102:16 whereas the others that had fallen asleep before them went down dead and came up alive. 102:17 So by their means they were quickened into life, and came to the full knowledge of the name of the Son of God. 102:18 For this cause also they came up with them, and were fitted with them into the building of the tower and were builded with them, without being shaped; 102:19 for they fell asleep in righteousness and in great purity. 102:20 Only they had not this seal.

102:21 Thou hast then the interpretation of these things also.' Old Testament references: Hosea 13 vs 14 "I will ransome them from the power of the grave; I will redeem from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes." Isaiah 26 vs 19 "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust....." Ezekiel 37 vs 1 - 14 ".......And ye shall know that I am the lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of the graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live....." Psalm 49 vs 15 "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me." 4. When was this first instituted? A "the remembrance of the departed" was already included in the Catholic Apostolic Church (pre-NAC, 1832 - 1901) in celebration of the Eucharist or Holy Communion. In the German branch, historical references points to an "All Souls Day" during the time of apostle Menkhoff (1826 - 1895) whereby the sacrament of the Holy Sealing were given to the departed. 5. By whom? See above (4) 6. How many times (refering to question 5)? Exact data unknown to me. 7. How can you become a bridge to those in the beyond? Grant them an invitation, and we can be living examples of similar experiences they faced while alive. They need our prayers and intercession before Jesus. 8. What happens to souls in the beyond (eg. in forest/ desert lands) that as never ever in their lifetime on earth come into contact with God's word?

The work on the beyond parallels that on earth. Jesus as the Son of God proclaimed the good news to them first before His resurrection. They can still find grace if they accept. This counts for all souls, past present and future who will pass out of this life. We velieve thta reborn souls in the beyond is actively spreading the good news as we speak. 9. Canibals - after death can they come into contact with the altar of grace? Yes. 1 Timothy 2 vs 4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of truth." 10. Do souls in the beyond come to persons on the earth that is the same ike them (eg. a deceased alcoholic to a New Apostolic in that same type" of disposition?) It depends on the alcoholic's will to overcome and his level of faith and spiritual development. After all, you can't give what you don't possess. All must have repentant hearts and a strong will to overcome, carry our cross with jpy knowing we will be glorified amd have eternal communion with God. Fundamentally we must recognise Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, and everything we are - will become, is alone by His sacrifice. Luke 21 vs 36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." 11. After souls are sent from the altar of grace where do they go? A realm accordibg to their level of spiritual development, the "reborn" souls and followers of Christ constituting the highest level that can be achieved. 12. Do these souls go back to where they came from? It depends. If they have accpeted the offer and begun the rebith process, they will return to a realm of higher estate accordingly. Jesus frees us from the claims of Satan, these souls will be made free from their captors. 13. In the 1000 year kingdom of peace, what happens to those souls who were ot saved?

Everybody will receive the message of the gospel again. The difference is they will be judged according to their works, the time of grace will end when Jesus returns to fetch His own. 14. Can departed souls hurt souls living on this earth? No. Jesus alone has the key to the realms of the beyond. The CA prays that he uses it and allows these souls acces to the living altar. Their existence is different to ours, and acces to our level of existence is alone in the hands of Christ. 15. If a soul has lived an upright and virtuous, Godly life but never ever ame into contact with the altar of grace, what happens to them? As before, he goes to a realm corresponding his level of spiritual development. Alone the process of the rebirth can make a soul a child of God. The rest is in the Lord's hands. 16. How difficult is it for souls who were murdered especially aborted ouls to find grace? It depends on their ability to forgive, accept the offer of grace our Lord has granted. All it takes is an open heart and comitment to a new life in Christ. 17. Do murderers after being executed by death by the law for killing, do they have the right to be saved? Yes, God doesn't discriminate. The effort must come from us, grace is always available. 18. Do you think the apostle's of the latter rain in the first 2nd out-pouring (Albury etc) will bow down to "this" altar of grace today? Reasons.... Bow down, no. Recognise, yes. I'm sure they have the ability to see and understand much more where they are now, compared to their natural lives. 19. If a baby at (eg. 1 year) old dies and the Lord comes to fetch his own directly after the death of the baby, - will that soul transpire the next day as a full adult soul? CA Bischoff explained it that young children will lack the development to a

high estate. As here, in the beyond all souls must develop to sprititual "adulthood". It's always an ongoing process, even for the souls who are reborn and died as adults. We pray and know that these "young "souls are taken care of. 20. Texts & Bible references needed leading up to the celebration of Departed Service. Re: What is a Departed Service?

JF ez

Registered User Posts: 882 (6/21/02 4:40) Reply | Edit

Scholar

Unregistered User (6/21/02 7:15) Reply

Luke 12:20 But God said to him, Fool! This night your soul shall be required of you, then whose shall be those things which you have prepared? Luc 12:20 Mais Dieu lui dit: Insensé! cette nuit même ton âme te sera redemandée; et ces choses que tu as préparées, à qui seront-elles? Lukas 12:20 Gott aber sprach zu ihm: Du Tor! In dieser Nacht wird man deine Seele von dir fordern; was du aber bereitet hast, für wen wird es sein? Men (NAC) said that he was sagacious, wise; but God said, "Thou fool". Dead is dead

MM: "I think that when it is referred to that God wants all men to be saved it refers both to the living (those alive) and the dead (those who have passed on)." Wrong. Listen to God, not man: Psalm 31:12 I am forgotten as a dead man out of mind: I am like a broken vessel. Psalm 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Psalm 106:28 They joined themselves also unto Baal-peor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead. Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence. Proverbs 21:16 The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead. Eccles. 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. Eccles. 9:5

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? Jeremiah 22:10 Weep ye not for the dead, neither bemoan him: but weep sore for him that goeth away: for he shall return no more, nor see his native country. Ezekiel 24:17 Forbear to cry, make no mourning for the dead, bind the tire of thine head upon thee, and put on thy shoes upon thy feet, and cover not thy lips, and eat not the bread of men. Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Re: What is a Departed Service?

JF ez

Registered User Posts: 884 (6/21/02 8:39) Reply | Edit

Matthew 25:41 Then He also shall say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. Matthieu 25:41 Alors il dira aussi à ceux qui seront à sa gauche: Allez-vous-en loin de moi, maudits, dans le feu éternel qui est préparé pour le diable et ses anges; Matthäus 25:41 Dann wird er auch zu denen zur Linken sagen: Gehet von mir, Verfluchte, in das ewige Feuer, das bereitet ist dem Teufel und seinen Engeln; Men (NAC) said, “We invite you”; but God said, "Depart from Me".

kevin579

Registered User Posts: 1125 (6/21/02 16:34) Reply

Re: Dead is dead

Hello firstly JF, what are you attempting to say in your post's? Scholar. It says in scripture that God is a righteous God it also says that God wishes all to be saved (the Lord said this not man). It also says that unless one is reborn out of water and spirit you cannot enter the Lords kingdom, and it says that unless you eat of the body of Christ and drink of His blood you have not part in him. This is the foundation for the service for the departed. God wishes all to be saved, but there have been millions who have lived without ever hearing of or knowing God and Christ. God is righteous, it

would not be right for him to deny salvation for them because they never had the opportunity to attain salvation, or know God or Christ, much less be reborn or partake in the Lords supper. It also would not be right for Him to give them a free pass to salvation because they lived at the wrong time and place, while He required much more from others. That is why the Lord established a means though the service for the departed for the seeking souls to have an opportunity to Hear of God and Christ, to be reborn and to partake of the body and blood. At the service for the departed the door is open for those who never could come to the Lords altar to come if they wish. None are called, none are named, none are spoken to, it is just whosoever will may come. Kevin

if ya dont know, ask Kevin. That goes for God too

Unregistered User (6/21/02 16:53) Reply

God is righteous, it would not be right for him to deny salvation for them because they never had the opportunity to attain salvation, or know God or Christ, much less be reborn or partake in the Lords supper. It also would not be right for Him to give them a free pass to salvation because they lived at the wrong time and place, while He required much more from others Seems Kevin knows whats right for God to do.

JEFFREY

Unregistered User (6/21/02 17:07) Reply

kevin579

Registered User Posts: 1128 (6/21/02 17:08) Reply Karl N

Registered User Posts: 657 (6/21/02 17:45) Reply

The body of Christ, the bvlood of Christ

Shalom Kevin, Do you believe in transubstantiation? I'm asking about the living here, I've given up on this service for the departed for now it's a "dead subject", and "not going anywhere". Re: if ya dont know, ask Kevin. That goes for God too

we all know what is right and what is unjust

Jeffery

Asking Kevin in which direction the sun rise raises ontological problems in itself........ he is best left alone 2 wonder around in his own head. Jeffery, never forget he is a plant from the Baptist church just 2 show how dumb the NA's can be. (Dumb in the spiritual sense) Never forget

Unregistered User (6/22/02 1:04) Reply

"he is best left alone 2 wonder around in his own head. Jeffery, never forget he is a plant from the Baptist church just 2 show how dumb the NA's can be. (Dumb in the spiritual sense)" Karl my boy, he gives new meaning to the word dumb!

deaconess

Registered User Posts: 261 (6/22/02 2:30) Reply

new, improved name calling

I...CAN'T....TAKE....THIS....ANYMORE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "Dumb, Idiot, Knuckleheads, Stupid, Ignorant, Dull...." "Arrogant, arrogant, ARROGANT, arrogant..." Let's be a little bit more creative.... meathead, pinhead, inarticulate, feebleminded, moronic, bewildered, shallow, vague, empty-headed, witless, obtuse, thick, dense, birdbrained, sappy, unlettered, benighted, naive, simpleton, nincompoop, booby...

and insolent, smug, vane, audacious, haughty, loftily, sneering... NOW GO TO YOUR ROOMS!!!!!!! Edited by: deaconess at: 6/22/02 1:34:53 am Scholar

Unregistered User (6/22/02 7:54) Reply

God's Word is truth

kevin579: "but there have been millions who have lived without ever hearing of or knowing God and Christ." You lie, but God's Word reveals the truth: Romans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; [19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. [2 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

TOS

Tired of Scholar

Smiling

Go to your rooms LOL

Unregistered User (6/22/02 9:00) Reply Unregistered User (6/23/02 15:48) Reply Laura

Unregistered User (6/24/02 22:05) Reply

Deaconess, I love your posts. Keep 'em coming.

Not-so-christian attitudes.

Very good Deaconess! Let's not forget vile, rude, crass, crude, guilefull, mean-spirited, mean, bullying, ugly .... and how about -- puffed-up, SELF-righteous, pompous, vain, narcisistic, omnipotent, presumptious, smart-mouthed, disdainfull, high and mighty, and all-knowing. And let's not forget that all of these characteristics are sinful and harmful when part of our human nature and only serve to tear down others and ultimately ourselves. And they just can't be fulltime characteristics of anyone who would claim to be Christian. Agreed? We all make mistakes and put these on from time to time. But when we do shouldn't we be ashamed? Shouldn't we apologize-- not just to God but to those we've hurt? Shouldn't we try to do better? Do any of us really think that our self-justifying with "I have a right" or "That's just the way I am", is gonna melt God's heart in any way toward us when we hold onto such a nature? What do you all think? Should we start an apology thread? Would there be anything on it? Could be a very "humbling" experience for everyone.

TNII

Registered User Posts: 452 (6/24/02 22:25)

Scholar.

Reading all of scholars biblical points compels me to point out to him, that each and every one of these "dead" references, could very well mean dead

Reply

in spirit. To say I am twisting the scriptures in this respect is to accuse yourself also of it. Since of course you would also then be taking a definition that best serves your interests. So consider the fact that the Bible is more a book of the spirit than the body. What are all of the possible "plain as day" definitions of these scriptures then? Swallow your pride and start to brainstorm Scholar. If in the end we still disagree, than atleast we understand each other more. ~TNII~

Scholar

Unregistered User (6/24/02 23:04) Reply

Not really

TNII: "Reading all of scholars biblical points compels me to point out to him, that each and every one of these "dead" references, could very well mean dead in spirit" It COULD if the person reading them had absolutely no concept of Biblical study, as well as no access to a good Greek/Hebrew lexicon. I realize that you hate me enough to continue to argue against me, but don't hate me so much that you leave yourself looking like a biblical illiterate. To make the statement you made above is testimony to the level of darkness your cult has kept you in.

Polka Dancer

Unregistered User (6/25/02 7:00) Reply

Keep'em coming scholar

you write: "To make the statement you made above is testimony to the level of darkness your cult has kept you in." Let's talk about demon lesbians, hellhounds and what I thought was the best line in the whole thread "Holy Ghost fury" . That seems to be the level of light that your beliefs has brought you to! Scholar you have lost all credibility on this board. Take what little diginity you have left and go. (BTW if you haven't noticed even KarlN and Jeffery have distanced themselves from you....gee I wonder why?) Re: God's love

graffiti angel

Registered User Posts: 10 (6/25/02 7:11) Reply ezSupporter

Jeffrey Just wanted you to know that over the night the Holy Spirit has been speaking to me. I smile thinking about it, but your question to me yesterday about false teachings has stuck with me. This morning I can see all too clearly what you were getting at. Thanx. Another lesson learned. God bless you. Moving on, AnGeL

Scholar

Unregistered User (6/25/02 7:23) Reply

Okie Dokie

Polka: "Let's talk about demon lesbians, hellhounds and what I thought was the best line in the whole thread "Holy Ghost fury". I'm ready anytime you are. Polka: "That seems to be the level of light that your beliefs has brought you

to!" Very perceptive. I'm glad you have come to see the difference between light and darkness. Thank you for the complement. Polka: "Scholar you have lost all credibility on this board." How does the "incredible" discern what is credible? Polka: "Take what little diginity you have left and go." Dignity is a kinder word for pride. Dignity should be exchanged for Galatians 2:22. Polka: "(BTW if you haven't noticed even KarlN and Jeffery have distanced themselves from you....gee I wonder why?) Actually, and with all due respect to Karl and Jeffrey, we were never aligned. Nothing to distance from. I don't even know them. myule

Unregistered User (6/25/02 7:33) Reply

another lesson

GA "over the night the Holy Spirit has been speaking to me. I am trying to remember what channel I also heard that on

Scholar

Unregistered User (6/25/02 9:21) Reply

myule

Unregistered User (6/25/02 9:31) Reply Scholar

Unregistered User (6/25/02 9:40) Reply myule

Unregistered User (6/25/02 9:47) Reply

Holy Spirit as media event?

myule: "I am trying to remember what channel I also heard that on" She is speaking of what God spoke to her, something that is severely lacking around here. lack ye anything

Scholar perhaps chooses not to use this media to reveal himself ???????

???????

?

Scholar now that was expected - there may even be a few other things you don't understand. Re: ?

graffiti angel

Registered User Posts: 11 (6/25/02 10:18) Reply ezSupporter

Actually it was your posting this morning that helped bring all the pieces of puzzle together for me myule. Ironic huh? It was like He turned on a light for me. He= Holy Spirit pub28.ezboard.com/fnacboa...1358.topic I checked through it and saw many things contary to what I've read and learned. And so I will leave you in peace. 1 John 2:27 "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and

is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." BUT I wish you all the best in Christ and I will pray for you that you will understand things better. There is still much more for me to learn also. Hopefully good things. Bye Scholar. Yes...through the haze. But I feel the sarcasm on anyone's part along these last few postings on either side of the fence to be NOT of a Christ like attitude. Perhaps you two should take an inner glance about that. Speak truth in peace. (turns off email notifications) AnGeL Edited by: graffiti angel at: 6/25/02 10:08:58 am Jeffrey

Unregistered User (6/25/02 10:55) Reply Unregistered User (3/9/03 13:37) Reply

Todah li El

Shalom GA, Thanks but instead we both say "todah li El"-Thanks to God! Sacraments for the Departed

Taken from the 'Questions regarding the New Apostolic Church' section of www.NewApostolicChurch.Org Q – “We would like to know more about Service for the Departed.” (We have had many questions on Service for the Departed. We hope to address most of them below.) A - The doctrine of Service for the Departed is based on the teaching of Jesus Christ and His Apostles. The most powerful proof that souls in eternity can be helped is that Jesus Christ entered eternity, immediately after His victory on the cross, to preach the gospel to those who were in captivity there. “For this reason the gospel was preached also to those that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (See 1 Peter 3:19,20 and 4: 6) That Jesus Christ would preach the gospel to these souls is demonstration of His longing to minister to them and proof that they can be helped. This was the first time that service was rendered to the departed. Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ is “Lord of both the dead and the living.” (See Romans 14:9) He would that all would be saved (See 1Timothy 2:4). The souls in eternity are part of that “all”. He told His disciples, “Most assuredly I say to you, the hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.” (John 5:25) Ministering to these souls in spiritual misery and captivity is perfectly consistent with the nature and intention of Jesus Christ. He wants to minister to all souls. He has proven that He can.

The Apostles of Jesus Christ continue this ministry today. It was the commission of Christ that His Apostles continue in all of the works which He began. In the Service for the Departed, the sacraments of the church are dispensed to living proxies for the blessing and benefit of the departed. The faithful in the world wide congregations pray and intercede for these departed souls that they are able to find grace. There is a great outpouring of compassion and invitation from the living in favor of the departed. Again, this is perfectly within the mind and spirit of Jesus Christ. We understand that there are many indiscernible mysteries regarding eternity. But there are certain truths to which we hold. We believe that eternity is not simply divided between heaven and hell; that good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell. Can mankind really be divided that simplistically? Rather, eternity is comprised of many realms. Souls enter those realms, upon their physical death, depending on the condition / development of their soul. Jesus Christ gives us an insight into eternity with His explanation of the state of Lazarus and the rich man in eternity. They find themselves in very different realms. The rich man is in torment. Lazarus is in fellowship with Abraham. Lazarus is not in heaven. We consider heaven to be that place, prepared by Jesus Christ, where we can be forever together with Him (See John 14:1-3). This text from John provides further illumination of eternity in that, besides this place that Jesus is preparing, there are many other mansions (realms) in the Father’s house. Revelation also affords us glimpses into eternity where we see different realms and various spiritual conditions revealed (See Revelation 6:9-11). Even the Old Testament gives us a hint of the diversity of eternity’s realms. Commenting on the death of Moses and Aaron, we read that Moses was gathered to his people and Aaron to his people (See Deut. 32:50). On first consideration we would say that each was gathered to their own family members in eternity until we consider that Moses and Aaron were of the same family, they were brothers. Could it mean that both were gathered to their own spiritual kind? Our celebration of Service for the Departed is in no way contradictory to Old Testament prohibitions against spiritualism and calling up the dead (See Deuteronomy 18:10,11). There is a tremendous difference between necromancy and ministering to souls in eternity. Jesus did not defy biblical prohibition when He went into eternity to minister to souls or when He called Lazarus out of the tomb. These were not acts of darkness or superstition but rather acts of love and compassion. It is love and compassion that motivates us in the Service for the Departed. Souls in eternity need to receive the treasures of Jesus Christ. Their condition is not hopeless. They are not beyond the loving reach of the Lord. He began this ministering in eternity. The Apostles of Christ and believing souls continue it. Our next Service for the Departed will be held in all New Apostolic Churches throughout the world the first Sunday in July, July 6th, 2003.

Unregistered User (3/9/03 18:11) Reply

interesting

Interesting: pub75.ezboard.com/fthediscipleshipfrm1.showMessage?topicID=420.topic

YbG

Unregistered User (3/9/03 19:25) Reply

What Gospel?

OK. So now through the NAC ministers the rich man spoken of in Luke 16, which Abraham said could not pass from sheol to his Paradise, can be saved? Isn't it hard to have a theology where the Word of God preaches against the Word of God. The Gospel does not preach any hope for the unsaved unbelieving souls - then why do you??? Your doctrine fits well together with Mormonism, but not with the Bible! Regards, YbG.

ybg

Unregistered User (3/9/03 19:27) Reply

What Gospel?

OK. So now through the NAC ministers the rich man spoken of in Luke 16, which Abraham said could not pass from sheol to his Paradise, can be saved? Isn't it hard to have a theology where the Word of God preaches against the Word of God. The Gospel does not preach any hope for the unsaved unbelieving souls - then why do you??? Your doctrine fits well together with Mormonism, but not with the Bible! Regards, YbG.

tncs

Registered User Posts: 242 (3/10/03 8:10) Reply

Re: What Gospel?

The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is just that, a Parable. It was said a time before Jesus had overcome Death, so of course there was a gulf, But he has now conquered death, the bridge is gulfed, he is Lord of both the dead and the living. If you care to read the books of Macabees. You can see they they also prayed for the dead in biblical times.

JF ez

Registered User Posts: 1776 (3/10/03 8:55) Reply | Edit

Re: What Gospel?

A splendid reward is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness. 2 Maccabees 12:45

1) To pray for those who fall asleep in godliness, it is a holy and pious thought. 2) To pray for those who fall asleep in wickedness, it is an unholy and impious thought. Jeffrey

Maccabees

tncs

Re: What Gospel?

Unregistered User (3/10/03 16:12) Reply Registered User Posts: 245

JF Ez:

(3/11/03 10:00) Reply

If you want to be judge and pray for only those who fall asleep in wickedness. I prefer to follow the example of Jesus Christ and pray for ALL. Who am I to judge who is wicked and who is godly? God wants all men to be saved. What God wants, he gets as far as I am concerned!

JF ez

Registered User Posts: 1782 (3/11/03 11:03) Reply | Edit

Re: What Gospel?

TNCS If you want to be judge and pray for only those who fall asleep in wickedness. Don’t get me wrong, please! I would endorse prayers for those who fall asleep in godliness and die in the Lord Jesus Christ. I prefer to follow the example of Jesus Christ and pray for ALL. When did He pray for ALL, please? Who am I to judge who is wicked and who is godly? Shall we pray for those who have sinned the sin unto death? That is to say, a universal and wilful falling away from the known truth of the gospel. The apostles give no encouragement to it, or any hopes of succeeding, but rather the reverse, 1Jo 5:16. Where this sin is known, or can be known, it is not to be prayed for, because it is irremissible.

Jeffrey

Unregistered User (3/11/03 13:17) Reply JF ez

JF'S DEPARTURE

Pray for those who fall asleep in Christ. Why?

Re: JF'S DEPARTURE

Registered User Posts: 1785 (3/11/03 13:26) Reply | Edit

To show that they will receive "a splendid reward" at the first resurrection!

tncs

Re: What Gospel?

Registered User Posts: 246 (3/11/03 13:34) Reply

Edited by: JF ez

at: 3/11/03 1:35:48 pm

When did He pray for ALL, please? Read ALL of John 17 JF Ez: He (Jesus) prayed for ALL those who would believe in him (Jesus) through the testimony of the apostles (regardless of whether they had a body or not).

JF ez

Registered User Posts: 1786 (3/11/03 13:53) Reply | Edit

Re: What Gospel?

Regardless of whether they had a body or not

Even so, if it does not have works, faith is dead, being by itself. James 2:17

Show me the faith of those “without a body” or rather “without any works”, and I will show you my faith by my works. ybg

Unregistered User (3/13/03 9:54) Reply

What Gospell?

Well said JF. In fact the passage in Maccabeans were simply a "kiddush" for departed righteous men. This was done more as a symbolic gesture, it was never commanded in Torah. To pray for dead people with the idea that men on earth can in any way "change" their condition is vain. The problem with the NAC theology in this respect is that the Gospel becomes of none effect. Yes, it becomes void and is replaced by "another gospel" which is no Gospel at all. All that is "necessary" for a human soul is that NAC ministers administers proxy sacraments for it when its dead. No faith, no repentance, or even worse; no atonement on this earth is needed. The consequence of this grand folly is this: The NAC becomes greater than its Lord, NAC becomes bigger than Yahshua (Jesus)! This is a true rebellion where the body rises up over its head, and where the head is dishonoured (1Cor.11:3-4). Truly no man has been given this authority that the NAC (and the LDS Mormon church who teaches the same thing concerning salvation for the ungodly dead) claims to have. It is a false and counterfeit authority that men have taken upon themselves - it is not from God. That's why one can say that NAC preaches another Gospel(l). Gal. 1:6-9. Messiah (Christ) said: "...that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins" (Matt.9:6). What does this mean you think? Does it mean that sins can be forgiven when a person is NOT on earth? The Father, YHWH, will surely destroy all the ungodly in sheol: "...fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matt.10:28). Anyone who does not preach this is a false teacher from the devil. Regards, YbG.

ByGraceAlone

Registered User Posts: 72 (3/13/03 10:00) Reply

Re: What Gospell?

Quote: All that is "necessary" for a human soul is that NAC ministers administers proxy sacraments for it when its dead. No faith, no repentance, or even worse; no atonement on this earth is needed.

This shows you are quite ignorant regarding the NAC's Service for the Departed. I have never heard it said that a departed soul can receive the sacraments without faith, repentance, or atonement. In fact, quite the

opposite. We are told that souls struggle with their condition. That all must have faith in Christ and the power of the sacrements. All must repent. And don't you think being in their spiritual condition for however long they might be there BEFORE they decide to repent is atonement enough? It is never prayed, "let all those whom we've prayed for receive the sacraments" but rather "let all whom our Heavenly Father has deemed ready and worthy to receive the sacraments". Big difference ... regards, JJD ybg

Unregistered User (3/13/03 10:18) Reply

What Go-spell?

JJD, So you claim that the ungodly departed struggle in a kind of "purgatory" and there they can by their own will and decision attain "faith, repentance, or atonement"? Where is the Scripture that support this position? I might be ignorant about all the details in the NAC unsystematical "theology". But you seem to be ignorant about that these doctrines of yours just creates a total confusion and disharmony with the Biblical foundation. Anyone who claims that human beings on earth IN EFFECT can act as saving "mediators" for the ungodly dead through proxy acts of different kinds is indeed a liar and a false prophet who preaches a "cursed" gospel [Gal.1:8]. That's all one need to know. Those who believed on Christ were warned, by Himself and His Apostles, for false prophets/apostles/teachers in no uncertain terms. Regards, YbG.

Jeffrey

Unregistered User (3/13/03 11:30) Reply

NAC is DEPARTED...from the true Gospel!

"Where is the Scripture that support this position?" There is NO support for this ybg. You are right in showing that this unbiblical charade of a "service" is from the Devil.The SFD is just another "hook" borrowed and adjusted from Catholicism that is used be the NAC TO 'keep em in'

ByGraceAlone

Registered User Posts: 75 (3/13/03 11:34) Reply

Re: What Go-spell?

1 Peter 3: 18 - 22

Quote: For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an

antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (NKJV)

Quote: For Christ [the Messiah Himself] died for sins once for all, the Righteous for the unrighteous (the Just for the unjust, the Innocent for the guilty), that He might bring us to God. In His human body He was put to death, but He was made alive in the spirit, In which He went and preached to the spirits in prison, [The souls of those] who long before in the days of Noah had been disobedient, when God's patience waited during the building of the ark in which a few [people], actually eight in number, were saved through water. And baptism, which is a figure [of their deliverance], does now also save you [from inward questionings and fears], not by the removing of outward body filth [bathing], but by [providing you with] the answer of a good and clear conscience (inward cleanness and peace) before God [because you are demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. [And He] has now entered into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with [all] angels and authorities and powers made subservient to Him. (Amplified)

Quote: That's what Christ did definitively: suffered because of others' sins, the Righteous One for the unrighteous ones. He went through it all--was put to death and then made alive--to bring us to God. He went and proclaimed God's salvation to earlier generations who ended up in the prison of judgment because they wouldn't listen. You know, even though God waited patiently all the days that Noah built his ship, only a few were saved then, eight to be exact--saved from the water by the water. The waters of baptism do that for you, not by washing away dirt from your skin but by presenting you through Jesus' resurrection before God with a clear conscience. Jesus has the last word on everything and everyone, from angels to armies. He's standing right alongside God, and what he says goes. (The Message) Jeffrey

Unregistered User (3/13/03 11:48) Reply

And..... the proof?

BGA, I also have those passages in my Bible, I already know that they are the ones you use in the NAC. Again though, the statement stands "You have no proof". You do not understand the very passages you cut and paste

ByGraceAlone

Registered User Posts: 77 (3/13/03 12:09) Reply

Re: And..... the proof?

I do understand. It's called reading comprehension. Try it! You always criticize everyone else for not facing what is clear in scripture, but this text is so clear and yet you ignore it. Read it slowly, realize what its implications are. Jesus would not go to preach to the souls in prison, and to free them as we also can be saved via Baptism if it was unneccessary. Nothing Jesus

did ever was without significance. ~ JJD ~ TNII

Registered User Posts: 847 (3/13/03 12:29) Reply

Re: And..... the proof?

Jeffery, both interpretations are open. Some believe that all whether dead or alive, being as death holds no bounds for the love of the saviour, must, can, will, and are saved. Some literallist believe otherwise that you have a short period of time of grace that God grants, and than after that he either, can't or doesn't want to reach you. I must believe the former. My belief not conforming to yours doesn't make it unChristian. Christ did it, it is our commision also to allow it to be possible, through faith and grace alone I thought. Not through flesh alone. ~TNII~

Reader

Unregistered User (3/13/03 22:47) Reply

Second Chance Theories

The Bible paints a picture of a God that is constantly reaching out to a fallen humanity. Over and over again we read of the ways in which he tries to bring us to a point of spiritual wholeness. Further to this the Bible also shows us that God takes no joy in condemning one of his creations to an eternity of torment in Hell. It is against this backdrop of ideas that that the "Second Chance" theory was born. The basic idea of it is that all people who rejected Jesus in this life for whatever reason will be given a second chance in the intermediate state in which to accept him and his work. The bible provides two passages that seem to lend some support to this idea and we shall now take a look at them: 1 Peter 3:18-22 "For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolises baptism that now saves you also -- not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience towards God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand -- with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him." (NIV) Looking at the above passage it does seem to lend credence to the idea of a second chance but we do need to ask a few questions: What spirits are Peter referring to? As we look closely at the passage we notice the following "who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah" If this passage was to fit a second chance theory it would need to be far more inclusive in its nature, as it stands alas it only provides the chance for a second chance for those living at the time of Noah. We would be left with the unanswered question of what about those people who die between then and the Second Coming? Another passage that is used by people who support the second chance theory is also from 1st Peter and is the following: 1 Peter 4:5-6 "But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged

according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit."(NIV) Again we have a few questions and a number of problems, the main problem being that the passage is in the past tense rather than the present or future. Even if you attempt to spiritualise the passage you are only left with it speaking about those who a spiritually dead in the here and now. A further problem is the way that the traditional understanding of the problem is rather different from the second chance understanding. The more traditional belief would be that what Peter was saying is that although the dead are indeed dead in our eyes they are non the less alive to God in the intermediate state. Alas the Bible seems to give no real support to the idea of a "Second Chance". Instead it very clearly comes down on the opposite understanding, which is that the decision that you come to about Jesus in this life affects your relationship with him in the next. Hebrews 9:27 tells us "man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgement" also Jesus when in confrontation with the Pharisees said "if you do not believe that I am (the one I claim to be), you will indeed die in your sins" John 8:24 plcomp

Registered User Posts: 105 (3/13/03 23:34) Reply

Let's depart from this

I tend to go along with what Eric said on another thread, and which is proved again on this thread. That which is not "pure doctrine" cut to the bone, becomes a stumbling block in our faith in God. Look at how we are arguing back and forth re wether we can or should indeed intercede for the dead - as though this will help our fellow Christians who are suffering here and now? - THIS is where our "humanitarian" efforts should be directed at! To try and motivate the SFD practice by a few obscure verses simply is not on for me. If, indeed, we believe in the supreme power of God, then we need to also ask ourselves: Does He REALLY need our help to save the dead, should it be His wish? There are some that says that NO WAY a second chance is impossible etc etc. I prefer to think that really, we can't say. We do not truly understand what happens when one dies, so all arguments in this department are futile. I really do not think us mortals should meddle with trying to save the dead. Don't we believe that God is up to the job, should He wish to do so? All that this does, is to re-inforce the erroneous view that faith in Christ is not enough - something "extra" is needed; and this "something" can only be obtained from/through NAC apostles! This distracts from the Christian "core doctrine", as Eric pointed out.

plcomp

Registered User Posts: 106 (3/13/03 23:53) Reply

Only we are right!

... and do not forget, the SFD in reality flows from the NAC view that "only we are right". The SFD is just a convenient solution to the question: "but if only the NAC is right, then what about those who have never heard of the NAC faith? Or those who died during the "gap" "? Oh that's easy! Just attend one of our services "in the spirit" - we will intercede for you!

LynneKC

Registered User Posts: 183

Re: Only we are right!

you really don't understand...and we don't pray for the dead, but for the

(3/14/03 0:03) Reply

soul which never dies. that's why it's called 'service for the departed', and not 'service for the dead'

Karl N

Registered User Posts: 1259 (3/14/03 4:17) Reply

NA Definition

de·part·ed ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-pärtd) adj. Bygone; past: relics from a departed era. Dead. See Synonyms at dead. You drones twist everything..... And the apo's always understand everything, don't they, so well versed in God Word LynnneKC, turn left and blow a kiss to that picture of your savior in a black suit.

LynneKC

Registered User Posts: 184 (3/14/03 6:32) Reply

Re: NA Definition

my savior doesn't wear a black suit, and i don't have a picture of him. the WAY to my savior wears a black/ blue/ gray suit, but i still don't have a picture of him. should i?.[ insert worried happy face emoticon]

Karl N

Registered User Posts: 1262 (3/14/03 8:39) Reply

Black / Blue/ Gray suit (Paul Smith perhaps?)

Funky………….Who know, D&G Briefs LynneKC, you don’t have a picture of your demi-god on the wall, in the office, maybe tucked away somewhere. Well, it’s a start I suppose, now if only you could get your (pretty) indoctrinated head around the fact that you don’t need these clowns however nice a person he may be…. They are deceivers and MOST of them don’t even know it. Don’t let them take you down with them. They have arranged the airconditioned rooms, the drones will just have to suffer the intense heat. Take care.

Jeffrey

Unregistered User (3/14/03 10:55) Reply

Eric

Registered User Posts: 72 (3/14/03 18:22) Reply

Left, Right ,Left Bang!

Reader, PL Comp (nice to hear from you again) and Karl offer good basis against this unbiblical service. Reader gives clear scriptural answers that unfortunately, most NA'S will not be able to understand. PL CORRECTLY makes the cult/exclusive connection between the SFD and NAC and Karl being an ex-drone and knowing of the eternal consequences of following the false New Apostolic teachings pleads for people like Lynne to come out! I hope you NA'S are truly reading these posts and asking yourself questions regarding them. God will help you to know if they are true if you ask sincerely and want truth! Second Chances

Thanks for the insightful post Reader. I read a theory once concerning the passage from 1 Peter 3:18-22. "...he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water..."

It pointed out the difference between the "spirits" in prison and the "people" who were saved. Some translations use the word "souls" to refer to the saved people. The point was that "spirits" might not be referring to the humans or souls at all but rather to the demons who led them astray. Perhaps the angels of Satan are imprisoned in some fashion. I'm not sure if that's the right interpretation but most translations do seem to make a distinction between the spirits who Jesus preached to and the souls/people who were saved. The preaching that was done may have been less an invitation to salvation than a good "chewing out." That coincides with an interpretation of Ephesians 4:8 "Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." This verse speaks of Christ defeating the enemy. To say "He led captivity captive" means he paraded them in their defeat. The ancient Roman practice was to parade the defeated and humiliated enemy in front of the people to demonstrate their total victory. Christ did that over the enemy of God when he conquered death. This particular passage is controversial because it seems to contradict the vast majority of the scriptures which suggest that our actions on earth decide our eternal destiny. I'm with Paul on this one -- I think the emphasis on the NAC offering salvation to the physically dead comes from their attempt to explain away the 1800 year gap during which our current doctrine states that no salvation of forgiveness of sins was possible. This has resulted in the inconsistent teachings we now find in our doctrine. Why strive so hard to be an overcomer when we can delay our efforts until either we are dead or sometime during the 1000 year kingdom of peace? After all, what's the hurry? Why does the Chief Apostle have to pray that Jesus opens the realms of eternity 3 times a year? We teach that departed souls freely attend services all year long. In any District Apostle service you will notice that communion is given by proxy for the departed who have come to the service. Yet, much attention was paid a few years ago to the exact manner in which the CA had to pray that eternity be opened. The issue of time zones was even studied. What if the CA or DA service was already concluded before services in more western areas even began? How could we "send" the souls to their altar for sacraments if their service was already over? The answer was that souls in eternity do not have time restrictions on them like we do. If souls freely come and go throughout the year why such concern over the CA's prayer? Revelation 2:10 says, "Be faithful unto death and I will give you the crown of life." Doesn't this imply some finality at death? If souls can change and accept the Gospel after they have died that implies they are active and have free will. That also means they could change and reject the Gospel after death. If souls can be saved then they can also be lost after death. I'll repeat an earlier point. We can talk all day about what happens to souls after death and never come to agreement. But what has this to do with OUR soul's salvation? How and why did such a controversial teaching become doctrine? Why do members have to believe this to be considered children of God and faithful members of the New Apostolic Church? Eric myule

Unregistered User

wow

ybg

(3/14/03 22:48) Reply

"The problem with the NAC theology in this respect is that the Gospel becomes of none effect. Yes, it becomes void and is replaced by "another gospel" which is no Gospel at all. All that is "necessary" for a human soul is that NAC ministers administers proxy sacraments for it when its dead. No faith, no repentance, or even worse; no atonement on this earth is needed." your knowledge of the NAC is indeed limited. your statement (copied above) is false. The prerequisites to receiving the Sacraments are the same for all souls, here or in the beyond.

plcomp

Registered User Posts: 107 (3/15/03 0:45) Reply

SFD

Also of note, is the fact that the SFD was only instituted LATER in the evolution of the NAC. Remember, the twelve CAC Apostles were - according to NAC literature the FIRST of the so-called "latter-day Apostles". And the CAC, as we know, firmly believed that Jesus would come IN THEIR TIME - hence they did not appoint new Apostles. Why did the "holy spirit" wait so long to "reveal" to the early Apostles that (a) new Apostles had to be appointed, and (b) that the SFD had to be instituted in order to save the dead?

Karl N

Registered User Posts: 1263 (3/15/03 5:05) Reply

Because Either

They were crackpots like David Koresh or they were in it for financial gain... There cannot be any other logical conclusion 4 that chain of events. They could never get away with that crap today.... That girls visions reminds me of those gold tablets/plates. Edited by: Karl N at: 3/15/03 8:30:39 am

JF ez

Registered User Posts: 1795 (3/15/03 6:18) Reply | Edit

Re: Second Chances

The unsound SFD teaching makes people not to worry about their salvation, because according to it there is no need of repentance in your lifetime. They do not bother, therefore, about the will of God. They ignore His ministers, neglect to worship the true God, and like not to retain him in their knowledge. My soul’s salvation? Why worry about that. I will care about that when I will be in Hades. Isn't that early enough? The devil likes such doctrines very much. That is absolutely acceptable to him. Really!

A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to lie down; then your poverty comes stalking, and your want like an a man armed with a shield.

Proverbs 24:33,34 The worst of sluggards only ask for a little slumber; they would be indignant if they were accused of thorough idleness. A little folding of the hands to sleep is all they crave, and they have a crowd of reasons to show that this indulgence is a very proper one. Yet by these littles the day ebbs out, and the time for labour is all gone, and the field is grown over with thorns. It is by little procrastinations that men ruin their souls. They have no intention to delay for years—a few months will bring the more convenient season—tomorrow if you will, they will attend to serious things; but the present hour is so occupied and altogether so unsuitable, that they beg to be excused. Like sands from an hour glass, time passes, life is wasted by driblets, and seasons of grace lost by little slumbers. Oh, to be wise, to catch the flying hour, to use the moments on the wing! May the Lord teach us this sacred wisdom, for otherwise a poverty of the worst sort awaits us, eternal poverty which shall want even a drop of water, and beg for it in vain. Like a traveller steadily pursuing his journey, poverty overtakes the slothful, and ruin overthrows the undecided: each hour brings the dreaded pursuer nearer; he pauses not by the way, for he is on his master’s business and must not tarry. As an armed man enters with authority and power, so shall want come to the idle, and death to the impenitent, and there will be no escape. O that men were now wise, and would seek diligently unto the Lord Jesus, or ere the solemn day shall dawn when it will be too late to plough and to sow, too late to repent and believe. In harvest, it is vain to lament that the seed time was neglected. As yet, faith and holy decision are timely. May we obtain them today. Edited by: JF ez at: 3/15/03 5:19:00 am BrendaP

Administrator Posts: 2065 (3/16/03 0:51) Reply

Passing Away

What do the beautiful roses say? Sweet is our perfume, but short is our stay; What says the hummingbird, do you know? Winter is coming and soon I must go. Passing away, passing away; Second and minute and hour and day! Birdie and blossom, how brief is your stay; Passing away, passing away. What says the clock, with its tick-a-tick, tick? Time passes swiftly, be quick, oh be quick. What are the words of the rivulet's song? I cannot tarry, I must run along. Passing away, passing away; Second and minute and hour and day! Birdie and blossom, how brief is your stay; Passing away, passing away. What does the sun in the morning say? Over I go for another bright day. What does your heart by its beating tell?

Earth life is passing, then where will I dwell? Passing away, passing away; Second and minute and hour and day! Birdie and blossom, how brief is your stay; Passing away, passing away. also by PP Bliss deaconess45

Registered User Posts: 74 (3/16/03 2:41) Reply

Re: Passing Away

Philip P. Bliss (1838-1876) My Redeemer I will sing of my Redeemer And His wondrous love to me; On the cruel cross He suffered, From the curse to set me free. Sing, O sing of my Redeemer, With His blood He purchased me; On the cross He sealed my pardon, Paid the debt and made me free.... For those NAC's that believe in exclusivity... Can you really believe that this man did not have the Holy Spirit in him? He is noted for many hymns, both lyrically and musically. One of the most common songs sung at a NAC funeral, "It is Well with My Soul" -- that music was composed by Mr. Bliss! (Spafford wrote the lyrics.) "Let the Lower Lights Be Burning"..."I Gave My Life for Thee"..."Hold the Fort"... "Jesus Loves Even Me".... Only 38, Philip died a tragic death. Bound for Chicago on a train, it plunged 60 feet into a ravine. Although he had escaped through a window, he returned in an attempt to rescue his wife -- both lost their lives in the fire. "I will sing of my Redeemer"... those words were found in his trunk in the train wreckage. It's clear what he sang of... it's clear he knew his Redeemer!

Jeffrey

Unregistered User (3/18/03 13:06) Reply

Clear

Yes D, It is clear. It is even more clear that: 1234-

vapour123

Registered User Posts: 32 (5/25/03 13:12) Reply

The The The The

"Gap" is an unbiblical absurd NAC Folk tale. SFD is an unbiblical absurd NAC creation 144,000 are NOT NAC members NAC Sealing ceremony is just that.

Re: Sacraments for the Departed

Someone asked about Praying for the Departed... Here are a couple of threads that deal with this subject of the "Service For The Departed" and "The Realms of The Departed".

vapour123

Registered User Posts: 38 (6/5/03 11:49 pm) Reply

Re: SFD

Paul, you wrote: "Also of note, is the fact that the SFD was only instituted LATER in the evolution of the NAC." I also wonder why the first 12 of the re-established apostolate in the CAC, (Catholic Apostolic Church) did not consider it important to establish the

SFD in 1832 and why did it come to light so much later in the NAC, even though the NAC had already been in existence for some time after breaking away from the CAC ??? Edited by: vapour123 at: 6/8/03 12:21 pm Karl N

Registered User Posts: 1461 (6/6/03 14:13) Reply

Because

It was a great marketing tool back then. Today, it’s a different story.... And with mass media at everyone’s fingertips all those manmade sects/cults are finally getting the correct exposure.