Response To The Smack Video
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07/11/2009 RESPONSE TO THE SMACK VIDEO http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwrm4Sjwp08 Video Observations 1. MMO-Ti dry cell with 4 cells. 2. Applied voltage – 13.82 volts 3. Cold start current – 10 Amps 4. Maximum current – 13.8 Amps 5. Starting ambient temperature – 69 Deg F / 20.5 Deg C 6. Maximum temperature in 8 hrs – 124 Deg F / 51 Deg C 7. MMW of the cell – 2.75 to 3.5 MMW 8. At 1.20 minutes – It has been informed that the cell is self circulating 9. At 1.45 minutes – It has been informed that the cell is forced circulating with 12 volts pumps Note – Readers may ignore the point 8 and 9 as this may be due to error. Missing parameter and my assumption for analysis - The video can not be considered as complete video until unless you have the following more information’s [I agree that for some of the point, Smack is not bound to disclose this] 1. The capacity of water tank is not mentioned. It is all necessary to inform the total water used in the system for conducting the temperature test. 2. The Anode is surely MMO-Ti, but no description is given for the neutral / cathode plates. Also no description with respect to center tap / single cell. 3. The life of the MMO-Ti plate is not disclosed in the video. However Smack mentioned that the cell will last for 3 years or 50000 miles. Analysis A. TEMPERATURE – I choose to take this parameter first as this is the most important parameter for any cell operation. My saying to this as follows
1. Smack cell starting temperature is 20.5 Deg C / 69 Deg F. But world wide the temperature range is different. In most of the countries the summer temperature reaches to 40-45 Deg C / 104 – 113 Deg F. 2. After 30-60 minutes of drive the engine bay temperature reaches to around 50-65 Deg C / 120 – 150 Deg F. That largely depends on the ambient temperature but the effect of ambient temperature will be only shrink / enlarge the timing nothing more. So in any case the cell has to face the temperature of 50-65 Deg C. Smack has informed that cell reaches to 124 Deg F / 51 Deg C in two hours with current of 13.7 Amps. If we consider the water quantity as 4 liters [based on the size of the container shown in video] then the energy wasted to rise the water temperature in first two hours is Watts = WQ x 4.184 x [T2 – T1] x 1000 / [t] Where WQ – Water quantity 4.184 – Specific heat of water in Joules / Gms Deg C T2 – Final temperature T1 – Initial temperature t – Time in hours Watts = 4 x 4.184 x [51 – 20.5] x 1000 / 2 = 510448 / 2 = 255224 Watts Now let us do the reverse engineering. Assuming the engine bay temperature at 55 Deg C then the water temperature of the cell will quickly rise to this level and then move upward. Again assume that the ambient temperature is 35 Deg C in mid summer then we can consider the average starting temperature of the water to around 45Deg C [mean of 55 and 35]. Now with the wasted energy let us calculate the water temperature after 2 hours using above mentioned formula. 255224 = 4 x 4.184 x [T2 – 45] X 1000 / 2 30.5 = [T2 – 45] T2 = 75.5 Deg C i.e. 168 Deg F So at this temperature the water will definitely produce some vapors. The quantity of the vapors will get increase in peak summer when the ambient temperature reaches to 45 Deg C / 113 Deg F. SO BASED ON THE ABOVE FACT I CONSIDER THE TEST OF SMACK IS A FALIURE / INAPPROPRIATE TO INCORPORATE IN AUTOMOBILE ENGINE BAY.
B. WATER QUANTITY – The water quantity is a very critical parameter. We need to ensure that to meet the video performance the water storage tank should be same as shown in the video also we should have enough space to install in engine bay compartment. I would like to share some of the classical incident with you, which is related to water quantity. Around two years back, the Bryan cell was a hot topic on forum. It has been put as state of art most efficient cell with no heating of water. I have decided to replicate the design as described by Bryan.
When I had tested the cell then I found that the cell designed by Bryan was an open bath design and heating the water. These details I had discussed with Bryan / Ash / Bill and we all found that Bryan was testing his cell with 15 Gallon of water but my test was only with around 1 liter of water. Due to large quantity of the water the water temperature was not going too high, but we simply don’t have space to install such a huge water container in car. I must admire that Bryan has taken my input quite positively and I am proud to inform you that other then technology groups we are connected on facebook and sharing the memorable events of our life. SO GUYS PLEASE DON’T IGNORE THE WATER QUANTITY USED IN ANY TEST, IT IS A VERY IMPORTANT FACTOR. C. MMW – In the video it has been shown that the MMW of the cell is between 2.75 to 3.5 MMW. This is different as the quality of the gas produced through MMOTi plates are entirely different then the SS cells. So far there is not much testing has been performed on the quality of gas, however it is just talked about. Some of the people are claiming that the good quality gas will give the good mileage, but where is the proof. Ed cooper has posed his
result with MMO-Ti booster on Hydroxy forum in his post number 34421 [http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Hydroxy/message/34421]. The content of the post and my reply is as given below
Re: MMO Titanium plates Hi, Thanks for posting the data. From your data I have analyzed the following Base mileage - 34.5 miles [mean of 34-35]. Mileage with booster - 38.36 miles percentage gain - 11.18 percent Current consumption - 5 - 8 Amps If I am correct on my analysis then such kind of mileage gain be obtained with any sealed series cell with 5-8 Amps of current. Regards Praveen --- In [email protected], "coop11111" <edecooper@...> wrote: > > Eric Kreig mentioned that I should post my results as well. I had already posted on the watercar list but he must not have seen it. Here it is... > > Eric, > > I bought one of the cells that Dustin made (more efficient). I was only running 5 amps cold and up to 8 warm. Then I added more KOH and started running 8 amps cold and 10-12 warm. My mileage increase stayed the same either way. The car is a 2003 Toyota Corolla and I've got 1000 miles on the cell Dustin made. The published estimate for the car is 35-36 highway (I can't really remember which). I usually get 34-35 highway but sometimes as little as 32-33 without a booster. > Since installing the cell I've gotten a very consistent 38. Yesterday it was 38.36. Every fill-up since installing the cell has shown 38 plus but 38.36 has been the best. My tests taken at 200 to 300 miles. > > I do think there's something to it but the cell will require a long life in order to pay for itself. I hope it will last. Thanks.
> > Ed Cooper
If the quantity of gas good then one should get the good mileage with minimum quantity of gas. But I don’t see any thing in the above mentioned post. SO GUYS THE POOR MMW IS JUST A LESS EFFICIENT CELL AS INITIAL RESULTS DOES NOT SHOW MUCH IMPROVEMENT IN MILEAGE BY MMO-Ti ELECTRODES. D. SELF / FORCED CIRCULATING – In the video it has been told that cell is self circulating however on later stage it has been informed that it is forced circulation with 12 volts pumps. These two approaches will make a huge difference in the water temperature control. So please be careful about it. I really do not know, whether the power consumed by 12 volts pump is considered in the MMW calculation or not. To my mind it is not. So if we will consider the power consumption by 12 volt pump then the MMW will be further down. SO ARE WE READY TO LESS EFFICIENT CELL WITH NO DISTINTCT ADVANTAGE OR READY TO INSTALL A 12 VOLTS PUMP ALONG WITH CELL E. LIFE OF ELECTRODES – However this parameter is not disclosed in the video but let us do some calculation on the data produced to us Life of cell – 3 Years / 50000 miles i.e. 80470 kms Mileage gain – 11 percent [mileage gain as per first report published] Assumptions Cost of the cell – 400 USD i.e. INR 20000/Cost of fuel – INR 47 per liter Mileage of cars without booster – 18 kms / liters With the above data, it is let us carry out some calculations Fuel consumed for running 80470 kms will be = 80470 / 18 = 4470 Liters Considering the twice the saving of initial testing with MMO-Ti booster i.e. 11 percent the saving in the fuel quantity will be
= 491 liters Money value for the fuel saved
= 491 liters x INR 47 per liters = INR 23077
So in the three years the money saved on the fuel will be INR 23077 against the investment on booster of INR 20000. Hence the net saving will be INR 3077 Only. However this saving will be wiped out if the MMO coating will be removed within 50000 miles. Note – 1. The saving to the environment is not considered here as it is considered as same for MMO-Ti / SS boosters. 2. Sorry for making the calculations in Kms or liters as I am not much conversant with Gallon / Miles. My interaction with the various manufacturer shows that the life of MMO coating is between 1-2 years. SO GUYS DO YOU FEEL THAT WITH SUCH COST ECONOMICS WE CAN PROMOTE THIS TECHNOLOGY TO SAVE THE ENVIRONMENT. CHOICE IS YOURS….. CONCLUDING REMARKS Respected members this analysis has been carried out for the betterment of the technology. I am also in quest of finding some suitable material, which can increase the quality of the gas but I will not do it on the cost of basing anybody or taking it personally rather I will consider to take other members along. I am forced to take the name of Smack as my name was mentioned in his video and I felt that it is my duty to inform the truth behind the curtain. I am not doing this for my own advertisement and for the proof of the same, I am blocking the sell of my kits from my website [www.fuelsavedevices.com] for next three months. Have a nice time ahead. With regards Praveen varma India [email protected]
www.fuelsavedevices.com
1. Smack cell starting temperature is 20.5 Deg C / 69 Deg F. But world wide the temperature range is different. In most of the countries the summer temperature reaches to 40-45 Deg C / 104 – 113 Deg F. 2. After 30-60 minutes of drive the engine bay temperature reaches to around 50-65 Deg C / 120 – 150 Deg F. That largely depends on the ambient temperature but the effect of ambient temperature will be only shrink / enlarge the timing nothing more. So in any case the cell has to face the temperature of 50-65 Deg C. Smack has informed that cell reaches to 124 Deg F / 51 Deg C in two hours with current of 13.7 Amps. If we consider the water quantity as 4 liters [based on the size of the container shown in video] then the energy wasted to rise the water temperature in first two hours is Watts = WQ x 4.184 x [T2 – T1] x 1000 / [t] Where WQ – Water quantity 4.184 – Specific heat of water in Joules / Gms Deg C T2 – Final temperature T1 – Initial temperature t – Time in hours Watts = 4 x 4.184 x [51 – 20.5] x 1000 / 2 = 510448 / 2 = 255224 Watts Now let us do the reverse engineering. Assuming the engine bay temperature at 55 Deg C then the water temperature of the cell will quickly rise to this level and then move upward. Again assume that the ambient temperature is 35 Deg C in mid summer then we can consider the average starting temperature of the water to around 45Deg C [mean of 55 and 35]. Now with the wasted energy let us calculate the water temperature after 2 hours using above mentioned formula. 255224 = 4 x 4.184 x [T2 – 45] X 1000 / 2 30.5 = [T2 – 45] T2 = 75.5 Deg C i.e. 168 Deg F So at this temperature the water will definitely produce some vapors. The quantity of the vapors will get increase in peak summer when the ambient temperature reaches to 45 Deg C / 113 Deg F. SO BASED ON THE ABOVE FACT I CONSIDER THE TEST OF SMACK IS A FALIURE / INAPPROPRIATE TO INCORPORATE IN AUTOMOBILE ENGINE BAY.
B. WATER QUANTITY – The water quantity is a very critical parameter. We need to ensure that to meet the video performance the water storage tank should be same as shown in the video also we should have enough space to install in engine bay compartment. I would like to share some of the classical incident with you, which is related to water quantity. Around two years back, the Bryan cell was a hot topic on forum. It has been put as state of art most efficient cell with no heating of water. I have decided to replicate the design as described by Bryan.
When I had tested the cell then I found that the cell designed by Bryan was an open bath design and heating the water. These details I had discussed with Bryan / Ash / Bill and we all found that Bryan was testing his cell with 15 Gallon of water but my test was only with around 1 liter of water. Due to large quantity of the water the water temperature was not going too high, but we simply don’t have space to install such a huge water container in car. I must admire that Bryan has taken my input quite positively and I am proud to inform you that other then technology groups we are connected on facebook and sharing the memorable events of our life. SO GUYS PLEASE DON’T IGNORE THE WATER QUANTITY USED IN ANY TEST, IT IS A VERY IMPORTANT FACTOR. C. MMW – In the video it has been shown that the MMW of the cell is between 2.75 to 3.5 MMW. This is different as the quality of the gas produced through MMOTi plates are entirely different then the SS cells. So far there is not much testing has been performed on the quality of gas, however it is just talked about. Some of the people are claiming that the good quality gas will give the good mileage, but where is the proof. Ed cooper has posed his
result with MMO-Ti booster on Hydroxy forum in his post number 34421 [http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Hydroxy/message/34421]. The content of the post and my reply is as given below
Re: MMO Titanium plates Hi, Thanks for posting the data. From your data I have analyzed the following Base mileage - 34.5 miles [mean of 34-35]. Mileage with booster - 38.36 miles percentage gain - 11.18 percent Current consumption - 5 - 8 Amps If I am correct on my analysis then such kind of mileage gain be obtained with any sealed series cell with 5-8 Amps of current. Regards Praveen --- In [email protected], "coop11111" <edecooper@...> wrote: > > Eric Kreig mentioned that I should post my results as well. I had already posted on the watercar list but he must not have seen it. Here it is... > > Eric, > > I bought one of the cells that Dustin made (more efficient). I was only running 5 amps cold and up to 8 warm. Then I added more KOH and started running 8 amps cold and 10-12 warm. My mileage increase stayed the same either way. The car is a 2003 Toyota Corolla and I've got 1000 miles on the cell Dustin made. The published estimate for the car is 35-36 highway (I can't really remember which). I usually get 34-35 highway but sometimes as little as 32-33 without a booster. > Since installing the cell I've gotten a very consistent 38. Yesterday it was 38.36. Every fill-up since installing the cell has shown 38 plus but 38.36 has been the best. My tests taken at 200 to 300 miles. > > I do think there's something to it but the cell will require a long life in order to pay for itself. I hope it will last. Thanks.
> > Ed Cooper
If the quantity of gas good then one should get the good mileage with minimum quantity of gas. But I don’t see any thing in the above mentioned post. SO GUYS THE POOR MMW IS JUST A LESS EFFICIENT CELL AS INITIAL RESULTS DOES NOT SHOW MUCH IMPROVEMENT IN MILEAGE BY MMO-Ti ELECTRODES. D. SELF / FORCED CIRCULATING – In the video it has been told that cell is self circulating however on later stage it has been informed that it is forced circulation with 12 volts pumps. These two approaches will make a huge difference in the water temperature control. So please be careful about it. I really do not know, whether the power consumed by 12 volts pump is considered in the MMW calculation or not. To my mind it is not. So if we will consider the power consumption by 12 volt pump then the MMW will be further down. SO ARE WE READY TO LESS EFFICIENT CELL WITH NO DISTINTCT ADVANTAGE OR READY TO INSTALL A 12 VOLTS PUMP ALONG WITH CELL E. LIFE OF ELECTRODES – However this parameter is not disclosed in the video but let us do some calculation on the data produced to us Life of cell – 3 Years / 50000 miles i.e. 80470 kms Mileage gain – 11 percent [mileage gain as per first report published] Assumptions Cost of the cell – 400 USD i.e. INR 20000/Cost of fuel – INR 47 per liter Mileage of cars without booster – 18 kms / liters With the above data, it is let us carry out some calculations Fuel consumed for running 80470 kms will be = 80470 / 18 = 4470 Liters Considering the twice the saving of initial testing with MMO-Ti booster i.e. 11 percent the saving in the fuel quantity will be
= 491 liters Money value for the fuel saved
= 491 liters x INR 47 per liters = INR 23077
So in the three years the money saved on the fuel will be INR 23077 against the investment on booster of INR 20000. Hence the net saving will be INR 3077 Only. However this saving will be wiped out if the MMO coating will be removed within 50000 miles. Note – 1. The saving to the environment is not considered here as it is considered as same for MMO-Ti / SS boosters. 2. Sorry for making the calculations in Kms or liters as I am not much conversant with Gallon / Miles. My interaction with the various manufacturer shows that the life of MMO coating is between 1-2 years. SO GUYS DO YOU FEEL THAT WITH SUCH COST ECONOMICS WE CAN PROMOTE THIS TECHNOLOGY TO SAVE THE ENVIRONMENT. CHOICE IS YOURS….. CONCLUDING REMARKS Respected members this analysis has been carried out for the betterment of the technology. I am also in quest of finding some suitable material, which can increase the quality of the gas but I will not do it on the cost of basing anybody or taking it personally rather I will consider to take other members along. I am forced to take the name of Smack as my name was mentioned in his video and I felt that it is my duty to inform the truth behind the curtain. I am not doing this for my own advertisement and for the proof of the same, I am blocking the sell of my kits from my website [www.fuelsavedevices.com] for next three months. Have a nice time ahead. With regards Praveen varma India [email protected]
www.fuelsavedevices.com
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